Author Topic: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1  (Read 4088 times)

Offline kfd274

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20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« on: February 14, 2012, 12:56:14 PM »
How many alarms is a 20 pump fire?

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20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« on: February 14, 2012, 12:56:14 PM »

Offline CFDMarshal

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 08:51:50 PM »
What do you think, 5-7 alarms? Wonder if Rodent attended this one?

Offline Bulldog

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 09:46:37 PM »
What do you think, 5-7 alarms? Wonder if Rodent attended this one?
That sounds about right!

Offline Lionheart

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 01:27:42 AM »
Description baout what x pump fire means:

The LFB, along with all other UK fire and rescue services, determines the size of a fire or special service by the final number of appliances mobilised to deal with it. For example, two appliances are despatched to a "B" risk area in response to a fire call in a residential house. The officer-in-charge can request additional appliances by transmitting a radio message such as, "make pumps 4", or if persons are believed to be involved or trapped, "make pumps 4, persons reported".[36] The control room will then deploy a further two appliances making a total of four. Informally, firefighters refer to such fires as 'a make up' or 'a 4-pumper'; [37] when the fire is out, if no other pumping appliances were despatched, this would be recorded as a '4-pump fire'.

If an incident is more serious, it can be escalated straight to a 6-, 8- or 10-pump fire and beyond in London this is usually completed in even numbers, though it is not uncommon for a 10-pump fire to be 'made up' to 15 if necessary. A call to, say, a large warehouse ablaze could be escalated straight to a 10-pump fire. The 2007 Cutty Sark fire required 8 pumps;[38] as a serious incident escalates, the brigade deploys senior officers, Command Units and any specialist appliances required.

Examples of 25-pump fires include the blaze at Alexandra Palace in 1980,[39] and at The Royal Marsden Hospital, Chelsea, in 2008, the latter also involving four aerial appliances. The King's Cross fire was a 30-pump fire,[40] as was the blaze at Oxford Street shops on 26 April 2007. Pumping appliances can only operate with a minimum crew of four, and a maximum of six (although this is rare) so it is possible, theoretically, to work out the number of firefighters attending an incident by multiplying the number of pumps by five. For example, the Cutty Sark fire was described as "an 8-pump fire attended by 40 firefighters".

Offline HCO

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 12:18:43 PM »
Here's an excerpt summarizing the 20 pump fire from the London Fire Brigade daily report:

"A24 SOHO   20 PUMP FIRE    14183121       GRAFTON STREET, W1

"Terraced house of 5 floors, 10 metres x 30 metres. 100% of roof area,
50% of 4th floor, 25% of 3rd floor damaged by fire. 1 person left
building before arrival of Brigade. 5 jets, 3 hose reels, breathing
apparatus, level 1 line ops, operational support unit for damage
control, same as all calls."

Offline tbendick

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 11:21:10 PM »
Well we do 4 engines per alarm
So I would say it's a 5th alarm.
I don't know how they determine special units and trucks.

Offline fdny1075k

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 03:23:04 PM »
Are there different risk area levels(C, D, E, F, G, etc.) where more than two pumps are initially dispatched?

Offline Dexter01

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 04:37:43 AM »
You are right in terms of engines, it would be a 5th.  London have Fire Rescue Units, similar to the Rescues.  I believe they are sent automatically on 8 pump (2nd alarm).  They can be requested also, same as other specials (trucks, hose layers, etc).  All of these would be special called in your terms.  In some areas, where the risk is deemed as such, they are also on the initial alarm assignment.

Offline 3511

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2012, 04:45:13 PM »
No word yet from Rodent. He must have been there and is now getting some rest.

What about the normal and special assignment of ladder trucks (aerial appliances?)


Offline catry

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2012, 05:39:14 PM »
The info I have is for Merseyside Fire in the Northwest, but the risk levels and responses are more or less standardized across the UK, set by the Home Office.  Not sure how up-to-date this list is -
"A" risk - built-up area with large commercial/industrial and high-rise residential properties (i.e., large portions of London) - 3 pumps, with first 2 due within 5 minutes.
"B" risk - areas in towns or cities with significant industrial/commercial properties such as an industrial estate or shopping area - 2 pumps, 1st due within 5 minutes
"C" risk - residential area consisting of terraced houses, small apartment buildings, or light industry/commerce - 1 pump within 8 minutes (10 in some areas)
"D" risk - rural areas such as villages, small towns, and farms - 1 pump within 20 minutes.

Aerial appliances response varies by brigade.  Most brigades will have one respond automatically on certain rescue calls, while some (I think London included) have one turn out to fire calls in buildings 3 stories and up.  From what I've seen for the most part, fire calls are generally handled by the pump, with any laddering done by the ground ladders carried on board.

Offline HCO

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 06:03:34 PM »
London Fire Brigade assignment for 13 Pump and greater fires:

"5 Watch Managers,  2 Fire Investigation Units, Command Unit, Media Resources Unit,
Brigade Command Unit, Fire Rescue Unit, Hose Laying Lorry, Breathing Apparatus Unit,
Canteen Van, 6 Station Managers, Press Liaison Officer, Fire Safety Officer, 3 Crew Managers
Area Manager, Brigade Manager (Incident Commander), Conference Unit Officer, Conference Demountable Unit, Ambulance.  Salvation Army Canteen responds on 8 Pumps."

Note that LFB utilizes civilian-type management titles rather than traditional fire service titles.
 

Offline Rodent251

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2012, 05:26:25 PM »
I very rarely view this area of the forum hence i have only just come across this thread!

Most of the information posted is correct, i personally was not at this fire as i was on rostered days off.

What we are finding in London recently is a tendancy for young inexperienced officers to be making up ( requesting further recources, transmitting the next alarm ) far quicker than history has shown, where now we have a 20 pump fire, say ten years ago it would have been a 15 pump fire at best, most probably a ten pump fire, in FDNY terms a second alarm.

The reluctance to make tactical decisions, due to a lack of confidence and experience by the current breed of senior officers, as well as an over adherence to health and safety, sees far too many firefighters and recources at fires than actually needs to be there.

Looking at the above info, the biggest difference between US depts and procedures and the UK is aerials, Aerials are generally only sent automatically to incidents if the premisis where the call is to requires one, such as a high rise, hospital or shopping centre, and only if its a call to an actual fire. Outside of these parameters the officer in charge has to request an aerial in order to get one.

As an example, a four pump fire, simmilar to a 10-75 in FDNY, in a two story house, wouldmjust be that, four pumps (engines), and an incident command unit, thats it.

With all the differences in the way we do it, our ultimate goal is the same, and i have found from my visits to NY that the spirit, camaraderie, and pride in fireifghters is just the same, wherever you are.

Anyone has any more questions please ask.

Regards

JT
If nothing changes, everything will stay the same..

Offline IRISH

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Re: 20 Pump Fire - Grafton Street W1
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2012, 06:53:07 PM »

House fire in Dublin is 3 pumps, Emergency Tender (Rescue), Ambulance & District Officer (BC)

Anything in City Center a Turntable Ladder would be dispatched
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