Author Topic: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems  (Read 4886 times)

Online FDNYSTATENISLAND

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Scroll down on the article and you will see 3 separate 911 calls with the audio from the report of this fire, which injured many.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/05/failed_911_system_delayed_resp.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Nycfire.net


Offline Bulldog

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 05:11:28 PM »
Hopefully that dispatcher is no longer working anywhere in the 911 system!!  Her level of incompetence is unbelievable and from my understanding of the system she certainly didn't follow the correct protocol.

Of course if the call taker spoke understandable English, which the call taker for the 2nd call didn't, the communication process would be shortened immensely!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:15:46 PM by Bulldog »

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Offline MP1234

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 02:05:54 AM »
Nice interactive view of the calls and map

http://project.wnyc.org/convent-fire/

Offline FDNY150

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2014, 11:22:23 PM »
Hopefully that dispatcher is no longer working anywhere in the 911 system!!  Her level of incompetence is unbelievable and from my understanding of the system she certainly didn't follow the correct protocol.

Of course if the call taker spoke understandable English, which the call taker for the 2nd call didn't, the communication process would be shortened immensely!

Trust me, she still has a job.
Step up or Shut up!!!

Offline Bulldog

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2014, 11:45:38 PM »
Hopefully that dispatcher is no longer working anywhere in the 911 system!!  Her level of incompetence is unbelievable and from my understanding of the system she certainly didn't follow the correct protocol.

Of course if the call taker spoke understandable English, which the call taker for the 2nd call didn't, the communication process would be shortened immensely!

Trust me, she still has a job.
What a Shame!

Offline DECC16743

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2014, 03:07:55 PM »
Does the city not have the capability of entering the location by common name or business name? Most 9-1-1 Centers or Emergency Comm Centers have that basic ability? I understand it would be  a large database but would make things a lot easier when people do not know the address or the calltaker is having trouble getting the information into the system.

Offline memory master

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2014, 03:55:13 PM »
Not at all taking away from your suggestion, but, could you imagine someone saying, for instance, "I'm at the Chase bank in Manhattan."

Offline FD347

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2014, 06:48:55 PM »
I have to issue the standard disclaimer: my opinions, no one elses.

Most every CAD system I know needs 1 or 2 basic items, an address or an intersection. You'd be surprised how hard it is for most callers to relay this simple info. In the case of the sister, she was giving the address but then she tried giving driving directions. (There was nothing wrong with the address. I think it was spelling error that caused the problem, Hylan vs Highland.)

Due to the political climate in this city, dispatchers from all 3 bureaus are under immense pressure to "follow the script". Ask the questions in the right order and get the info or else! If a caller forces them to go off-script, or if they don't get the expected answers, they're lost. An unfortunate by-product of our litigious society puts emphasis on procedure over outcome.

In this case, had the call been transferred directly to SI Fire, there would have been a better outcome. Local knowledge is key. You can't expect everyone to know every street in the city. Dedicated dispatchers who either live or study their assigned borough can handle this type of situation better, but we're not heading in that direction.

If they'd stop treating this like 1 city and go back to 5 cities, there'd be some improvement for it's easier to manage 5 smaller operations than 1 large one. But that's wasteful.

Let's face it, if Northrup-Grumman and NASA can't find a simple, inexpensive solution to UCT, maybe there's something wrong with with the basic premise. After all, this isn't rocket science.
Frank Raffa
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2/22/1923 - 6/3/2008

Offline Bulldog

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2014, 06:50:29 PM »
Not at all taking away from your suggestion, but, could you imagine someone saying, for instance, "I'm at the Chase bank in Manhattan."
You bring up a good point but it would be beneficial for instance if somebody said they were at the Chase Bank on 43rd St. or at St. Patrick's Cathedral, etc.  It certainly wouldn't be the ultimate solution in many cases but it would certainly be very helpful and it is something that most 911 centers have at their disposal.  Even if it narrowed the possible location down to a couple of places that could be a big help a lot of the time.

Offline manhattan

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2014, 11:09:28 PM »
One problem that I've noticed for years, at least in Manhattan, is that probably a minimum 75% of buildings do not have their address posted.  That makes it more difficult not only for FD, EMS and PD but also for anyone trying to give an accurate location to the UCT.  Additionally, when sidewalk sheds are erected they frequently do not post the building address on the street side of the structure.  I know there's a law requiring that address be prominently posted and it's one that should, but seems to never be, enforced (I imagine by DoB).  Based on the number of violations I see, it would also be a good, and worthy, revenue producer for the city.  I know some people won't like this part of the idea, but it's an issue where both FD and PD should be authorized to issue summonses.

Offline memory master

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2014, 10:40:11 AM »
With regard to addresses, did you ever notice that some corner building addresses are on the side street? Purely hypothetical now...350 5th Ave. has the 350 on the 34th street side entrance. An unknowing person calls 911 and says the incident is at 350 34th street. So now response may be to 34th between 1st and 2nd Aves, 34th street between 8th and 9th Aves. or maybe, just maybe the 5th avenue address depending on an astute dispatcher's garnering of information. I guess we could square root this forever but somehow something has to change.

Offline grumpy grizzly

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2014, 10:48:05 AM »
We have some of these in downtown Chicago. A building on the corner of Michigan and Wacker has two entrances, one on each street, and a different number. At least we got rid of the "vanity" addresses after someone died in a fire. They gave XXX vanity address when the correct address was XXX Michigan Ave.
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Offline manhattan

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2014, 06:43:01 PM »
A good example of the "vanity address" issue here in New york are all the "Penn Plaza" addresses which cover several square blocks from at least 30th to 34th Streets and Seventh to Eighth Avenues but in absolutely no discernible order.  Emergency services have it well figured out but it causes a lot of confusion not only for tourists but also for locals.

Offline DECC16743

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Re: 911 Call Audio from SI Convent Fire shows dilemma and problems
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 12:03:02 PM »
Not at all taking away from your suggestion, but, could you imagine someone saying, for instance, "I'm at the Chase bank in Manhattan."
You bring up a good point but it would be beneficial for instance if somebody said they were at the Chase Bank on 43rd St. or at St. Patrick's Cathedral, etc.  It certainly wouldn't be the ultimate solution in many cases but it would certainly be very helpful and it is something that most 911 centers have at their disposal.  Even if it narrowed the possible location down to a couple of places that could be a big help a lot of the time.

Yes that would be an issue, but most CADs that do have a database by business name also show the street address when you pull up the business by common name, also I would be surprised if NYC didnt have or use this technology, but in the 9-1-1 center I worked in in NC, our mapping system was tied to our phone system, anytime someone called their location showed up on our map, so if they were not sure where they were we could assist better.  Landlines were exact and cell phones if phase 2 were pretty close in most cases. If they do not have this technology they should invest in it. Also one post talks about scripts...I know NYC does not use NAED systems but maybe they should look into, they have scripts for fire ems and police and even has ways to stay on track if one gets taken off by the caller. While I was trained before the scripts it definitely is helpful, and it also allows for the dispatcher to provide more detailed safety instructions to the caller.

 

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