Author Topic: 10-75 vs All Hands  (Read 1949 times)

Offline 811

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 05:40:43 AM »
Never remember any reference to a "Dispatcher's All Hands".

Communication Manual c1961, section 1.13.2 reads:
"In the event engine and ladder companies assigned on second or greater alarm are not in service, dispatcher shall provide required number by special call or greater alarm."

So, is a Chief ordered a second alarm [or greater], and there were not enough units available, dispatcher could transmit next higher alarm "Dispatcher's Third Alarm" etc.  Therefore, there was no such thing as a Dispatcher's Second Alarm.  This practice was discontinued c1980.  Don't know of any possible changes in this policy in the last 20 years or so.

Also around 1980, a directive that if a Chief tried special called numerous companies over an all-hands or greater alarm assignment (a process called "nickel and dime-ing"), the dispatcher was to notify the chief that any further companies would require the transmission of a greater alarm.

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 05:40:43 AM »

Offline Battalion10Buff

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 01:50:43 PM »
At Sunday’s 4th Alarm on Nagle Avenue Manhattan Dispatch gave the all hands:

B-13: “We have an advanced fire on arrival, give me an extra engine and extra truck, let me know who my fast truck is.”

Manhattan gives the identity of the FAST truck and 4th due engine and then proceeds to transmit the all-hands

Manhattan: “Manhattan announcing all-hands going to work for box 1785, 150 Nagle Avenue, between Thayer st and Fort George Hill, for a fire in a taxpayer”

I’ve heard this happen pretty often recently, for example the 3rd alarm at Box 1192 the day before and some other 10-75s where the chief needs additional units. I’m not familiar with what has been the policy in the past, but from what I’m reading this seems to be a new trend, is it possible that the dispatch policy was updated?
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Offline 811

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 05:49:34 PM »
Maybe there are no rules anymore; I'm just reporting the way it was...

Offline manlt

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 08:31:25 AM »
If the 10-75 is given and chief is asking for above that assignment, it is taken that "all hands are being used".  Definition in communication manual for all hands is 3 engines and 2 trucks going to work.  10-75, 4 engines, 2 trucks, Fast truck, Rescue and Squad.  Go extra 1 & 1 above, equal 5 engines and 3 trucks (not counting fast truck), safe to give the all hands.
"New" procedure also, if dispatcher is loading the box, it is the full 10-75 assignment minus the deputy.  This was done so that their was uniformity.  No 10-75 has been given, but if you are the 4th engine or fast truck, your ticket says fill 10-75 due to computer.  Someone still has to transmit it.
Also, probably in Dispatchers Directives, if "all hands" is given without 10-75, dispatcher will give balance of 10-75 assignment (or ask if needed), unless the probably will hold is given with the all hands.

Offline BoroCall

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 09:07:09 PM »
I have noticed lately that some Dispatchers are transmitting the All Hands on a
request for an extra E&T

Nowadays some dispatchers will add the extra E&T when the CIDS indicates w/b etc. and then immediately transmit the All Hands.

 I believe it's implied that If an Extra E & T are needed; Then AH are Operating

I have heard dispatchers ask the B or D if their using AH, after the add 1&1 are requested.
Also, when numerous calls are received, the dispatcher give the extra 1&1 only to be returned by the B or D.  A mattress fire in a stairwell can cause this.

Offline BoroCall

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 09:14:51 PM »
Never remember any reference to a "Dispatcher's All Hands".

Communication Manual c1961, section 1.13.2 reads:
"In the event engine and ladder companies assigned on second or greater alarm are not in service, dispatcher shall provide required number by special call or greater alarm."

So, is a Chief ordered a second alarm [or greater], and there were not enough units available, dispatcher could transmit next higher alarm "Dispatcher's Third Alarm" etc.  Therefore, there was no such thing as a Dispatcher's Second Alarm.  This practice was discontinued c1980.  Don't know of any possible changes in this policy in the last 20 years or so.

Also around 1980, a directive that if a Chief tried special called numerous companies over an all-hands or greater alarm assignment (a process called "nickel and dime-ing"), the dispatcher was to notify the chief that any further companies would require the transmission of a greater alarm.

Yep, the good old days.  My reference to a Dispatcher's All Hands, was when a dispatcher transmits the All Hands on the basis of the number of units being used, even if the B or D does not actually transmit the AH.  I have heard a dispatcher tell a B or D that there going to transmit the AH with the B or D acknowledging.  Now none of this may actually be in a manual 
as being a Disp. AH, but it is the same concept.

Offline t123ken

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2017, 06:37:41 PM »
An all-hands is, at the least, three engines (or two engines and a squad), two ladders and a battalion chief working.  There are plenty of all hands where no 10-75 was given.
It's impossible to say what the maximum is for an all-hands.
For example, a 10-76 with all responding units put to work is still just an all-hands, right?

A perfect example: http://nycfire.net/forums/index.php/topic,50073.0.html

1701 - FC - Per Car 6 - All Hands

Maybe:
E-54, 65, 26, 34, 8 Lobby, 1 CFRD, 7 Communications, 33 w/ High Rise 1
L-4, 21, 24F, 2, 35, 25 s/c, 16 s/c, 28 act. 4 s/c, 12 s/c
B-9, 8, 10, 7, 2, 11 Safety
S-18
R-1
D-3
RB, SB, FC, FCB
MSU, Tac 1
RAC-1
Car 6

Offline 811

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2017, 08:00:42 PM »
At one time, some dispatchers believed you could not order companies to relocate UNLESS an All Hands or greater was transmitted.  One night a ship with a fire in the hold came into the Bush Docks, a full assignment was dispatched.  The hold was sealed, CO2 discharged, and all companies remained  on the scene till morning when the hold would be opened.  The chief truthfully reported holding "1 and 1 with the rest standing fast" all through the night.

By some people's reckoning, there would have been no need to relocate.  Similarly, when on the bells, companies "on the card" were assigned to relocate on certain alarms.  It was never mandated that you must use the card relocators. Dependent on coverage, a smart dispatcher would direct those companies to remain in quarters, and choose other more practical units to relocate.

Offline BoroCall

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 11:04:37 PM »
An all-hands is, at the least, three engines (or two engines and a squad), two ladders and a battalion chief working.  There are plenty of all hands where no 10-75 was given.
It's impossible to say what the maximum is for an all-hands.
For example, a 10-76 with all responding units put to work is still just an all-hands, right?

A perfect example: http://nycfire.net/forums/index.php/topic,50073.0.html

1701 - FC - Per Car 6 - All Hands

Maybe:
E-54, 65, 26, 34, 8 Lobby, 1 CFRD, 7 Communications, 33 w/ High Rise 1
L-4, 21, 24F, 2, 35, 25 s/c, 16 s/c, 28 act. 4 s/c, 12 s/c
B-9, 8, 10, 7, 2, 11 Safety
S-18
R-1
D-3
RB, SB, FC, FCB
MSU, Tac 1
RAC-1
Car 6

In theory the Chief in Charge can call it what he wants.  But a 10-76 and a 10-77 are special highrise codes and are codes within themselves.  In other words the operation can be a 10-76 or 10-77 and called the same without an All Hands or greater alarm transmitted. 

A chief might say he/she is using all units on the 10-76/77, but it is still considered a 10-76/77.  If it's in Manhattan - Citywide would come on "Citywide announcing in the boro of Manhattan a 10-76/77 has been transmitted with all units operating.

Offline t123ken

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2017, 07:04:59 PM »
I could be mistaken.  One of us is.
When the stats come out at the end of the year is a 10-76 or 10-77 counted as an all-hands?
Maybe one of the dispatchers can add to this or one of the chiefs who goes back to when the yearly stats weren’t automatically generated and the Battalions and Divisions kept their own.

Offline BoroCall

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Re: 10-75 vs All Hands
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 08:52:28 PM »
I could be mistaken.  One of us is.
When the stats come out at the end of the year is a 10-76 or 10-77 counted as an all-hands?
Maybe one of the dispatchers can add to this or one of the chiefs who goes back to when the yearly stats weren’t automatically generated and the Battalions and Divisions kept their own.

To get a bit technical, "All Hands" (7-5) is suppose to correspond to using all companies on the First Alarm assigned by the dispatcher to the box.  Being that both a 10-76/77 are greater assignments then a "regular" (7-5) "All Hands".   The term 10-76/77 "All Hands" is just stating that all units assigned on the 10-76/77 are being used - but it is still greater than an All Hands.

That is why I am saying that a 10-76/77 is a special code within it's self.  Then you have 10-76/77 - 2nd alarm etc. which is obviously a much larger operation then a Reg. 7-5, followed by a 2nd etc alarms.

 

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