Author Topic: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !  (Read 3093 times)

Offline STAjo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2759
  • Gender: Male
  • Former NY State EMT, NYC Security, Buff
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2018, 11:31:53 PM »
Get basic facts down first.  Learn the difference between semi-auto and full auto.  Learn that murders by rifle average about 300, yes 300, a year in the US.  AR-15's and AK's are classified as rifles, because that's what they are.  Americans own millions of them.  Handguns kill many thousands every year, mostly in urban areas.   https://ucr.fbi.gov/

Learn about the Constitution.  Read up on how the 2nd Amendment is interpreted by the federal courts.  Their view is the only one that matters.

If you personally research all of the easily available facts, it will become clear that anti-gunners ALWAYS mislead. Facts and law are not on their side.  So they can't use them.

If my anti-gun opponents are not intellectually honest, why would I ever believe what they say.

 I'm Not "Anti-Gun"; I am appalled by the Mass-Murder of Children, (and adults), enabled by the AR-15 & similar weapons.
 I have 'researched easily available facts'... FACTS:   https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/02/22/does-the-second-amendment-really-protect-assault-weapons-four-courts-have-said-no/?utm_term=.2cd9933d7e8b
 
 "The question of assault weapons was not addressed by the Supreme Court when, in 2008, it held for the first time in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm. Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the court, went out of his way to say that the right “is not unlimited.”
Justice Scallia, is a renowned Conservative. http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf

Several State Appeals Courts have upheld Assault Weapons Bans, and SCOTUS has declined to hear Appeals to Overturn - So far, they have let Federal Circut Courts address the matter:
' Federal Appeals courts since then, bans on the semiautomatic guns known as assault weapons have been upheld, usually for the same two reasons.
Banning them, the courts have said, does not curtail the right of self-defense protected by the Constitution.
Also, states and municipalities have legitimate reasons to ban AR-15-style weapons because of the dangers they pose, to schools, innocent bystanders and police'.  That same argument is being made by advocates of an assault weapons ban in the wake of the killing of 17 people at Florida’s Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School. 

“Put simply,”  Judge Robert B. King of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit wrote , “we have no power to extend Second Amendment protection to the weapons of war that the Heller decision excluded from such coverage.”
U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit reached the same conclusion:  “semiautomatic assault weapons have been understood to pose unusual risks,” resulting in “more numerous wounds, more serious wounds, and more victims. These weapons are disproportionately used in crime, and particularly in criminal mass shootings like the attack in Newtown. They are also disproportionately used to kill law enforcement officers,” the court said.

Facts, Just Sayin' ...  ;)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:47:21 PM by STAjo »

Nycfire.net

Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2018, 11:31:53 PM »

Offline BoroCall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 637
  • Gender: Male
  • Former:NYCRelief,Recovery,Support & counties
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2018, 11:11:37 AM »
There is a saying and it goes like this.

"Don't blame a whole group of people for the actions of a few". That was told during the L.A. Riots of 1992. Did everybody cause that damage and injuries. I don't think so.

I have many friends that are good. outstanding citizens who own weapons, have never used them to commit a crime, have never been arrested, and certainly never shot anybody. Should they have to pay the price for what an unstable select few do ?
Agreed Sir!!!

I have absolutely no problem with firearm ownership for sport, hunting and to protect your home & family, but there is absolutely no reason that firearm ownership should include any type of assault, simi-auto, or auto weapon.  These types of weapons are not required for any type of sport, hunting, and the protection of your home & family.

I do have a problem the the ability of anyone with any type of mental disorder to be able to purchase any type of firearm and with the availability of these types of firearms for purchase.

I fully applaud Dicks Sporting Good's and the like for severing ties with the NRA. 

I am fully aware of "the right to bear arm's", unfortunately when the Constitution was written
"arm's" did not say except for........... nor did any of these "arm's" exist or known to be foretold by our founding father's.

Online raybrag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1935
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2018, 12:57:19 PM »

I am fully aware of "the right to bear arm's", unfortunately when the Constitution was written
"arm's" did not say except for........... nor did any of these "arm's" exist or known to be foretold by our founding father's.

So maybe the 2nd Amendment only protects our right to own smooth-bore muskets?
Ray Braguglia
Newport News VA


Offline turnout

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2018, 01:03:32 PM »
There is a saying and it goes like this.

"Don't blame a whole group of people for the actions of a few". That was told during the L.A. Riots of 1992. Did everybody cause that damage and injuries. I don't think so.

I have many friends that are good. outstanding citizens who own weapons, have never used them to commit a crime, have never been arrested, and certainly never shot anybody. Should they have to pay the price for what an unstable select few do ?

Would this logic have worked after 9/11 nfd2004?  Did all airline passengers cause those planes to fly into buildings? I don't think so.  Yet increased security and regulation was put into place for ALL who fly.  As much of an inconvenience it can be to be screened and searched plus carry-on, and luggage restrictions, the fact is it has led to safer air travel.  So to answer your question , yes definitely.  A parallel that the NRA refuses to concede.



Offline STAjo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2759
  • Gender: Male
  • Former NY State EMT, NYC Security, Buff
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2018, 01:13:35 PM »

I am fully aware of "the right to bear arm's", unfortunately when the Constitution was written
"arm's" did not say except for........... nor did any of these "arm's" exist or known to be foretold by our founding father's.

So maybe the 2nd Amendment only protects our right to own smooth-bore muskets?

 From previous ...

  Federal Appeals courts since then, bans on the semiautomatic guns known as assault weapons have been upheld, usually for the same two reasons.
Banning them, the courts have said, does not curtail the right of self-defense protected by the Constitution.
Also, states and municipalities have legitimate reasons to ban AR-15-style weapons because of the dangers they pose, to schools, innocent bystanders and police'. 

 Pay Attention.    ;)

Offline scoobyd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2018, 01:37:28 PM »
  I'm referring to facts and law in the broad context of 2A.  You give a few links with cherry picked quotes about a narrow issue of the debate.  That's not research or a developed point of view. 

 
   

   




 




Offline STAjo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2759
  • Gender: Male
  • Former NY State EMT, NYC Security, Buff
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 02:32:09 PM »
  I'm referring to facts and law in the broad context of 2A.  You give a few links with cherry picked quotes about a narrow issue of the debate.  That's not research or a developed point of view. 
 

 Scooby - I Love Ya' Brother. -
 I 'Cherry-picked' for the sake of Space & Time Here.... I'd be glad to send you more if you want further discussion.
My Point in all this is that Federal Circuit Courts, as well as SCOTUS tend to uphold State and Local Bans on Assault Rifles.
In so doing they have citied compliance w/ Constitutional Norms over time. The trend appears to be that barring further
Legislation, States/Localities maintain the Right to bar certain weapons while not infringing upon 2nd Amendment Rights. 

Despite my or your Opinion, Current Law; Allows Localities to determine which Weapons are Legal in their communities.    :)

Offline scoobyd

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2018, 05:41:12 PM »
Gotcha.  Back to fire stuff!

Offline tl-ff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 254
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2018, 08:12:11 PM »
The 2nd Amendment does not exist for hunting or sport. It exists to defend the people against the government and tyranny. And what part of "shall not be infringed" is hard to understand? 

And if some folks like to think that the 2nd amendment only protects muskets. Then the 1st only protects newspapers and the speech that comes out of ones mouth. So computers, phones and any other devices people use to communicate and say as they wish, aren't protected. 

The AR-15 is not an assault weapon. It functions the same as a pistol and any other semi-automatic weapon.

The problem we have in this country is not a gun problem, it's a people problem plain and simple. When we consider going after a company because it's product is being used in a manor inconsistent with it's designed purpose instead of telling the users to knock it off. That points directly at where our priorities lie. Kids eating laundry soap should be told to stop being jackasses, but that's not the case. There's been legislation in some towns and cities to force the soap companies to change the color and or looks of said soap. How about telling the kids to stop being morons?

Chicago leads the nation in gun laws, and yet at the same time they lead the nation in murders. So how is adding to the useless gun laws already on the books going to prevent more killings?

We protect money, "priceless" artifacts, politicians and even pieces of paper with guns, alarms systems and other serious protective measures. But we protect ourselves and kids with "gun free zone" signs and other useless laws that only the law abiding citizen follows. How's that working out for us? How often does a police station or other armed facility get shot up? 

Most of the proposed gun laws being thrown around are just as useless and will not work.

 -A 2 day waiting period: Most shootings have been planned well in advance of the actual shooting, so just adding a few more days will not deter anyone bent on shooting up defenseless targets.

- Limiting capacity magazines: They'd have to change out the magazines more, but it won't do much when they can just carry a book bag full of magazines. Like has been done for most shootings. 

- Ban the evil looking AR-15 and Ak-47: These are just semi-auto weapons and function the same as pistols and other semi-auto rifles.

Drinking and driving and texting while diving has killed far more people than wackjobs shooting up unarmed places. Where's the call to ban cars? Or cell phones? Or Booze? Or to restrict the type of cars people are allowed to own and add items such as spoilers and racing stripes or low profile tires?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 08:24:00 PM by tl-ff »

Offline 68jk09

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9991
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2018, 08:58:29 PM »
^^^^^^^  tl-ff  Well Said.

Offline turnout

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2018, 10:54:54 AM »
Another standard NRA reply:  'It's a people problem....not a gun problem....'

Of course it is! 

Cars aren't drinking alcohol and phones aren't  punching keys.   But putting into place stronger enforcement and tougher penalties has dramatically reduced drunk driving deaths and technology is being installed in phones to prevent texting and driving as well as new laws prohibiting. ( note-another safety improvement the NRA has fought against is the technology of finger print smart guns)
I agree with you ti-FF, most proposed gun laws being thrown around are just useless and will not work.  They don't go far enough. 
An excellent example of what enacting strictler gun laws will do is the 1996 National Firearms Act of Australia put into place after the Port Mosby massacre.  Since then there has been 47% decline in gun deaths and no mass casualty incidents have occurred.  And other first world countries who have strict gun control in place have even much better stats.   
The stats don't lie,  weather its for drunk driving or gun control, yet the NRA/2A people want to ignore them,  selflessly refuse to adapt to this ever evolving public health crisis. 

So I ask you tt-FF and 68jk09 or anyone else who cares to join in this debate, what would you do to address the 'people problem'?

Offline memory master

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2128
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2018, 03:40:35 PM »
Turnout, that is a good question. There is no cure for stupidity as such. Anger, mental health issues, immaturity and other individual problems fall into this situation. If we as a people were able to look into the minds of other people and anticipate their actions many of these dramas would be prevented. Unfortunately, we as individual human beings cannot do this. Even the most learned in medical and psychological positions cannot. Not to be redundant, I think you have posed a good question and it is one I probably could never answer in a definite factual way. Let's just keep praying because right now that seems to be all we have.

Offline manhattan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1499
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2018, 08:58:29 PM »
"Let's just keep praying because right now that seems to be all we have."

No truer words have ever been spoken, especially on this topic.

Offline CFDMarshal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2018, 09:17:30 AM »
Another standard NRA reply:  'It's a people problem....not a gun problem....'

Of course it is! 

Cars aren't drinking alcohol and phones aren't  punching keys.   But putting into place stronger enforcement and tougher penalties has dramatically reduced drunk driving deaths and technology is being installed in phones to prevent texting and driving as well as new laws prohibiting. ( note-another safety improvement the NRA has fought against is the technology of finger print smart guns)
I agree with you ti-FF, most proposed gun laws being thrown around are just useless and will not work.  They don't go far enough. 
An excellent example of what enacting strictler gun laws will do is the 1996 National Firearms Act of Australia put into place after the Port Mosby massacre.  Since then there has been 47% decline in gun deaths and no mass casualty incidents have occurred.  And other first world countries who have strict gun control in place have even much better stats.   
The stats don't lie,  weather its for drunk driving or gun control, yet the NRA/2A people want to ignore them,  selflessly refuse to adapt to this ever evolving public health crisis. 

So I ask you tt-FF and 68jk09 or anyone else who cares to join in this debate, what would you do to address the 'people problem'?

I have stayed out of this debate but I love how people look to the Australia example. You really need to look hard at the true effect of the ban in Australia. Talk to a police officer in Sydney or Melbourne and see what they tell you. I promise you it is not as clear as the stats portray it to be.

The problem and the rub of the issue seems to be simply being told what to do by the government. If you want a real debate get into the debate of underfunded mental health programs, cuts in Veteran programs or god forbid the Planned Parenthood bullshit! If we have reduced ourselves to the level that we expect the government to regulate us to the level of safety and security then we are all crazy. Our problems start and end in the home, We have ZERO interactive family relationships anymore. Find a time where the entire family, be it a single parent household , sit down and eat togethjer without a damn cellphone in their hand! You won't! We better get closer to our maker and not to the government! Prayer Brothers, Prayer!

Offline NYBravest82

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 411
    • LCPhotowerx
Re: 2nd Amendment RIGHT !
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2018, 05:35:09 PM »
Anyone who wants so badly to own an ar-15, wants only one thing in my mind, and that is to maim and murder countless  amounts of people. There is no justifiable reason at all for anyone to own one. If you need a machine whose sole purpose to kill, then you need to have a mental examination. And on the topic of that, Not eveyone who has a mental illness is a threat to society. I have a mental illness, yet I have zero desire to even lay a pinky on a gun, i abhor them. I am not a threat, nor are a large chunk of people with mental illnesses. What these shooters posses is something far, far worse then a mental illness. What they posses is a sociopaths desire to kill. Theres my lil rant, i'll now return to my apparent, "libreal-freedom hating-tree huggin' hippie rabbit hole."

 

anything