Author Topic: Engine 165  (Read 11640 times)

capthale

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2018, 09:16:58 PM »
How many lines can an engine usually handle

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2018, 09:16:58 PM »

Offline 68jk09

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2018, 11:13:24 PM »
How many lines can an engine usually handle
Thats a good question...it is really not about what an ENG can handle but what the FDNY mandates today...the FDNY now teaches no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper.....however this is constantly questioned by those in the street...todays Pumpers are much more capable than those Pumpers of old which i have seen with 5 lines off a Pumper (some that had the 5th line off the tip of the old pre piped Deck Guns)....one of the problems (or maybe the biggest close call)  i had when i was still working after  this "edict" of no more than 2 lines stretched off a Pumper came down was at a Fire with one of my CPT's almost trapped....the question then & still today ..." how many of the 1st two  lines are actually flowing water at the time a 3rd might be stretched ?."...not to beleauger the issue but i had submitted reports to get the "written in stone " edict amended (to no avail) but as a quick example of the one most serious situation i had...a Fire in a mattress store on the ground floor of a 3 sty frame with apts above....as per FDNY protocol for 2 1/2 in a commercial occupancy the 1st Line was a 2 1/2 in the store on the 1st fl  & the 2nd Line a 2 1/2 into the basement sales area of the store....all visible Fire was knocked down in both the original store & it's basement sales area (as well as the store in exp 2)....however hidden Fire had extended via pipe chases & or balloon framing wall spaces to the cockloft of the original bldg & exposure 2...as the 2nd floor ceiling was pulled Fire was erupting into the 2nd fl with Members above on the 3rd fl & Roof  i ordered a standby ENG to get another line to the 2nd fl (multi apts above both stores with oddball entrance stairways none facing exp 1...long story short their  Officer went to the 2nd fl where they were going to operate & they went to the nearest Pumper who told them he already had 2 lines off (actually neither was flowing water as  AVFKD in the store & basement had been knocked down) so they go to the next Pumper who attempts to refuse them also as he says he has 2 lines off .... at the same time their Officer who went to the 2nd fl now becomes forced to the front window as the room is taking off ...(he was looking for a FF who had been seen from the street pulling a ceiling originally when this went South) their ECC (a very Senior FF) seeing they did not get a line from the nearest Pumper runs to the 2nd Pumper & tells the ECC we are taking a line & you will supply it...i did not understand what the delay was at the time but i wanted a Line so i had an ENG who was in exp 4 2nd fl (now knocked down) bring their 1 3/4 out & up a portable into the window where the CPT was & they knocked down the Fire ....everybody went home but afterward when i spoke to the ECCs of the 2 ENGs they were adamant they were right as that is what ECC school was teaching ... as i said previous none of my reports resulted in a  modification of the no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper policy  ...... this Third Alarm occurred mid 2000s while i was ADC in DV*14 & was filmed on a commercial Buff video including the CPT in the window waiting for the Line as the Fire was taking off.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 03:30:18 AM by 68jk09 »

capthale

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2018, 11:43:27 PM »
Crazy

Offline nfd2004

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2018, 08:24:29 AM »
How many lines can an engine usually handle
Thats a good question...it is really not about what an ENG can handle but what the FDNY mandates today...the FDNY now teaches no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper.....however this is constantly questioned by those in the street...todays Pumpers are much more capable than those Pumpers of old which i have seen with 5 lines off a Pumper (some that had the 5th line off the tip of the old pre piped Deck Guns)....one of the problems (or maybe the biggest close call)  i had when i was still working after  this "edict" of no more than 2 lines stretched off a Pumper came down was at a Fire with one of my CPT's almost trapped....the question then & still today ..." how many of the 1st two  lines are actually flowing water at the time a 3rd might be stretched ?."...not to beleauger the issue but i had submitted reports to get the "written in stone " edict amended (to no avail) but as a quick example of the one most serious situation i had...a Fire in a mattress store on the ground floor of a 3 sty frame with apts above....as per FDNY protocol for 2 1/2 in a commercial occupancy the 1st Line was a 2 1/2 in the store on the 1st fl  & the 2nd Line a 2 1/2 into the basement sales area of the store....all visible Fire was knocked down in both the original store & it's basement sales area (as well as the store in exp 2)....however hidden Fire had extended via pipe chases & or balloon framing wall spaces to the cockloft of the original bldg & exposure 2...as the 2nd floor ceiling was pulled Fire was erupting into the 2nd fl with Members above on the 3rd fl & Roof  i ordered a standby ENG to get another line to the 2nd fl (multi apts above both stores with oddball entrance stairways none facing exp 1...long story short their  Officer went to the 2nd fl where they were going to operate & they went to the nearest Pumper who told them he already had 2 lines off (actually neither was flowing water as  AVFKD in the store & basement had been knocked down) so they go to the next Pumper who attempts to refuse them also as he says he has 2 lines off .... at the same time their Officer who went to the 2nd fl now becomes forced to the front window as the room is taking off ...(he was looking for a FF who had been seen from the street pulling a ceiling originally when this went South) their ECC (a very Senior FF) seeing they did not get a line from the nearest Pumper runs to the 2nd Pumper & tells the ECC we are taking a line & you will supply it...i did not understand what the delay was at the time but i wanted a Line so i had an ENG who was in exp 4 2nd fl (now knocked down) bring their 1 3/4 out & up a portable into the window where the CPT was & they knocked down the Fire ....everybody went home but afterward when i spoke to the ECCs of the 2 ENGs they were adamant they were right as that is what ECC school was teaching ... as i said previous none of my reports resulted in a  modification of the no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper policy  ...... this Third Alarm occurred mid 2000s while i was ADC in DV*14 & was filmed on a commercial Buff video including the CPT in the window waiting for the Line as the Fire was taking off.

 Chief thank you for this story. These are the kind of stories that taught "me" back in my younger firefighter/buffing days.

 I can't speak for the FDNY. But I "can" speak for guys that I know in other fire departments. This is the kind of thing that so many guys learned from without opening a book. They in turn, many of whom got promoted, passed that information onto other members of the department. The end result I believe, was a few more civilian lives saved, and I'm sure Firefighters lives too were saved when it was all put together.

 As a firefighter/buff from years back, I personally am very THANKFUL for all that I was able to learn and pass onto the guys from hundreds of stories just like this.

 

Offline mac8146

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2018, 09:03:21 AM »
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ff’s and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.

Offline fdhistorian

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2018, 10:50:04 AM »
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ff’s and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?

Offline turk132

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2018, 10:58:34 AM »
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ff’s and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?


That is the issue... how many lines will be affected IF....... going back, don't remember when, but 1 line 1 engine was talked about meaning 2nd line would come off another engine having a water supply.


Offline Bulldog

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2018, 07:32:10 PM »
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?
That's always a risk but that failure rate is so minuscule it's hardly worth considering.  If they are going to keep following these rules then why are they bothering spending the extra money to get 2000 GPM engines?

Fire departments all across the United States both paid and volunteer depend on a single-engine company in many cases to be the sole piece of equipment attacking a fire.  Many times there is even a 2nd piece of apparatus on the scene until quite a while after the initial attack and they don't seem to have any major issues.

I can't remember the last time I read an article about firefighters being killed or injured because of the failure of an engine company or loss of water supply except if it was caused by a compromise in the lines they were actually using.

Offline scoobyd

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2018, 08:02:01 PM »
Two points to consider- 

  1. Every line started after the 1st operating line usually requires the ECC to increase the pump pressure.  If the pump pressure is increased while lines are operating, each of those lines needs to be "gated-down" manually back to the correct pressure, while at the same time increasing pump pressure for each additional line.  But thats academic when shit is hitting the fan.

 2.  A  2 1/2"  is not mandated for a commercial occupancy in a MD.  The only mention of that in the books is to consider it for "large volume fires" in OLT stores.  A very senior and well respected BC in the 35 has been an advocate over the years for using discretion with which line size is used in commercial occupancy fires.  His position IIRC is to go with 1 3/4" whenever possible- faster, more maneuverable and much less taxing on the troops.  I think it is a point very worthy of consideration by an engine officer.

Offline manhattan

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2018, 11:01:36 PM »
OK, I'm baffled again (nothing new for me): what are "OLT stores" and "IIRC"?

Thanks. ??? :-[

Offline 69 METS

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2018, 11:21:01 PM »
Two points to consider- 

  1. Every line started after the 1st operating line usually requires the ECC to increase the pump pressure.  If the pump pressure is increased while lines are operating, each of those lines needs to be "gated-down" manually back to the correct pressure, while at the same time increasing pump pressure for each additional line.  But thats academic when shit is hitting the fan.

 2.  A  2 1/2"  is not mandated for a commercial occupancy in a MD.  The only mention of that in the books is to consider it for "large volume fires" in OLT stores.  A very senior and well respected BC in the 35 has been an advocate over the years for using discretion with which line size is used in commercial occupancy fires.  His position IIRC is to go with 1 3/4" whenever possible- faster, more maneuverable and much less taxing on the troops.  I think it is a point very worthy of consideration by an engine officer.


Maneuverability vs. GPM's. I've been at jobs in commercial buildings where the engine company was operating a properly supplied 2 1/2" attack line with the nozzle wide open and they were overrun by fire.

capthale

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2018, 12:19:25 AM »
So all the 1 3/4 have a 2 1/2 at the end if there a long stretch.  And the 1 3/4 is not connected to the 2 1/2 on the truck? And does one of the hoses have a y on IT?

capthale

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2018, 12:23:52 AM »
Did look at some previous posts and got some answers it’s just hard to understand it if you don’t actually see it sometimes does anybody have a picture of the 2 1/2 with the gateway going to the inch and three-quarter thanks

Offline nfd2004

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2018, 08:42:48 AM »
So all the 1 3/4 have a 2 1/2 at the end if there a long stretch.  And the 1 3/4 is not connected to the 2 1/2 on the truck? And does one of the hoses have a y on IT?

 I don't know for sure but if I remember, it was NOT a gated "Y" that was used. Simply a reducer of 2 1/2" to 1 3/4" (1 1/2").

 The initial stretch would be 3 (?) lengths, maybe 6 lengths (?). Then the 2 1/2" hose would start to come out. The FDNY guys would certainly know more about it than I do.

 That way, if things started to go sour on the fire ground, the 2 1/2 hose had already been started out and tied into the discharge of the rig. Of course it also cut down on friction loss, using that 2 1/2 hose once that number of lengths were stretched.

 I remember when I saw that at a job, I thought "what a great idea". I think I had even taken a picture of it during my buffing days with that reducer in the street tying those two different hose sizes together.

 So for me, being on the job back then, we talked it over among the boss and the guys, and I think today it is still in use. Not only where I was a firefighter, but word spread to other departments as well.

 Bear in mind, that is "nothing official", but only as I somewhat remember it as a buff. 

 There is NO DOUBT in my mind that "anybody" who wants to learn fire dept tactics and procedures, the FDNY is the Place. From Brush fires to high rise fires and everything else in between. They have been there and done that. Plus of course Ship fires, plane crashes, water rescue, high angle rope rescue, etc and etc. "The place has it all".

capthale

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Re: Engine 165
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2018, 11:07:06 AM »
Ok a reducer not a y I was thinking that because I do see that a lot on other Dept.  The 3 inch or 3 1/2 could do that though. I don’t know if fdny uses that concept on longer stretch’s.