Author Topic: High Ladders  (Read 20027 times)

Offline rdm258

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 10:35:03 AM »
I been telling Kelly from the beginning of this Oil Spill crisis if the Fire Dept was in charge. It would be stopped, somehow, someway. Even if had to fill it with a bunch of "probies" (LOL). Especially if FDNY was in charge they would find some resource to stop it. Just figured,went along "nfd" with your "men on mars" statement, it's true. NYC is one amazing City with one amazing fire and police(hate me for saying them in the same sentence) Dept's. They encounter and overcome so amazing challenges and are faced day in and day out, with the "What's going to happen today" that will test our resources and knowledge.

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2010, 10:35:03 AM »

Offline guitarman314

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2010, 11:20:19 AM »
That is well put "69mets". If depts followed the FDNY questions would have been answered. I always wondered why many chiefs or depts didn't just ask the advice of the FDNY and get an answer to their problem. They test any new equipment, tactics etc. And you name it, they got it. From the highrises of Manhattan to the single family frames in parts of the city.
  I guess you could say, "I'm on the outside looking in", but I see some of the tactics out there, and a lot of money spent on some new pipedream equipment for some depts and I just shake my head. Usually, the FDNY has tried it months ago, and if it didn't work, they rejected it. And they would gladly give the reasons why. They have tested and tried it. Whether its buying hose, turnout gear, or apparatus. Whether its how to vent a frame or venting a high rise, FDNY usually has the answer.
  They might even be able to put a "Man on Mars" if they worked hard enough on it.
  All kidding aside, they know their stuff and are always willing to help. And I'd say that's true from the Firefighter to the Highest Seasoned Officer.

So your saying that "Bronto type-ladders" have been tested by the FDNY?
And they wasn't good enough?
And the old "ladder-type" ladder beat them?

  I believe the FDNY was thinking of purchasing a long reach Bronto in the late 80's. I even remember seeing a drawing somewhere depicting a giant 4-axle Ladder 24 Bronto. I don't know why they didn't buy one but I can tell you IMHO that something that big cannot maneuver around Manhattan.

Offline 1261Truckie

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2010, 12:31:09 PM »
Guitarman314,

Wasn't the city's decision not to purchase a Bronto based partly on the fact that an FDNY chief was tossed out of the bucket of a Bronto during a demonstration and the company's poor safety record at that point in time?

1261truckie (Jim)

Offline HelsinkiFire

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2010, 12:43:57 PM »
That is well put "69mets". If depts followed the FDNY questions would have been answered. I always wondered why many chiefs or depts didn't just ask the advice of the FDNY and get an answer to their problem. They test any new equipment, tactics etc. And you name it, they got it. From the highrises of Manhattan to the single family frames in parts of the city.
  I guess you could say, "I'm on the outside looking in", but I see some of the tactics out there, and a lot of money spent on some new pipedream equipment for some depts and I just shake my head. Usually, the FDNY has tried it months ago, and if it didn't work, they rejected it. And they would gladly give the reasons why. They have tested and tried it. Whether its buying hose, turnout gear, or apparatus. Whether its how to vent a frame or venting a high rise, FDNY usually has the answer.
  They might even be able to put a "Man on Mars" if they worked hard enough on it.
  All kidding aside, they know their stuff and are always willing to help. And I'd say that's true from the Firefighter to the Highest Seasoned Officer.

So your saying that "Bronto type-ladders" have been tested by the FDNY?
And they wasn't good enough?
And the old "ladder-type" ladder beat them?

 I believe the FDNY was thinking of purchasing a long reach Bronto in the late 80's. I even remember seeing a drawing somewhere depicting a giant 4-axle Ladder 24 Bronto. I don't know why they didn't buy one but I can tell you IMHO that something that big cannot maneuver around Manhattan.
We will be getting a 5-axle 235 feet tall ladder in Helsinki this year.
But Bronto is able to manufacture smaller only 3-axle aerials, that are a lot bigger and "better" than the usual ladder trucks that the FDNY uses.
Example:
Helsinki 36 110 feet tall: http://kuvalle.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Incidents+in+Helsinki/A+huge+inferno+on+a+Neste+gas+station+/kuva6.JPG
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 12:46:49 PM by HelsinkiVolunteer »
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Online raybrag

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2010, 01:16:37 PM »
Let's not get into a watering tournament here, guys.  Some of the recent posts seem to insinuate that FDNY has the ONLY good ideas in firefighting, and now our Finnish friend talks about a "better" ladder.  Can't we agree that yes, FDNY is a great department, but there are other great departments in many places around the world.  Conditions in Helsinki are far different than in NYC and perhaps a long-reach Bronto is better for the conditions there; and maybe a 75' Aerialscope or 100' straight stick is better for NYC.  That doesn't mean that Finnish firefighters are better (or worse) than FDNY members . . . just that they face different conditions when they meet the red beast.
Ray Braguglia
Newport News VA


Offline HelsinkiFire

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2010, 01:28:00 PM »
Let's not get into a watering tournament here, guys.  Some of the recent posts seem to insinuate that FDNY has the ONLY good ideas in firefighting, and now our Finnish friend talks about a "better" ladder.  Can't we agree that yes, FDNY is a great department, but there are other great departments in many places around the world.  Conditions in Helsinki are far different than in NYC and perhaps a long-reach Bronto is better for the conditions there; and maybe a 75' Aerialscope or 100' straight stick is better for NYC.  That doesn't mean that Finnish firefighters are better (or worse) than FDNY members . . . just that they face different conditions when they meet the red beast.

Yep yep. I don't want to hurt anybodys feelings.

But I just meant the pure "ladder abilities".
Your ladders are better equipt than ours, ours are higher than yours.
Cultural difference.
Biggest difference is the use of ladder trucks in my homecountry and in the States.

We use ladder trucks only, because of the ladders (high rescue etc.). So our ladders don't have any equipment.
You dispatch ladders to traffic accidents etc. And your ladders are better equipped than basic engines.

Main thing is that both truck types works and safes people!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2010, 01:36:36 PM by HelsinkiVolunteer »
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Offline grumpy grizzly

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2010, 05:44:30 PM »
OK guys time for me to chirp.In 1974 the Chicago Fire Dept purchased a very unusual rig. It was on a Hedrickson Diesel chassis with a 3 man cab. The ladder is a Japanese-made 136 foot Morita-lift with a 2-man elevator that runs up the center of the extended 6 section aerial  Although originally assigned to H&L Company 2, but was too big for company quarters. It was then assigned to H&L 1. I have pixs but all my stuff is with my son. Walt McCall has a pix on page 373, credits to him with his book American FireEngines since 1900 The second rig in question is a Boston Fire Dept rig. In 1941 BFD received a white-painted 3 man enclosed cab ALF (Model HD-125} This rig had a short and troubled career. Assigned to Lader 8 the aerial buckled during an evening drill. The rig was repaired by ALF and returned to service. In 1942 it was buried under a falling wall in which 6 BFD members were killed. Boston box 5-6153, November 15. The rig was again rebuilt, painted RED and returned to service with a 100' aerial and assigned to Ladder 19. While on a test run in 1947 the rig overturned during a brake test. A member of Ladder 19 was killed,after this the rig was scrappped :(
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Offline FDNY150

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2010, 11:36:18 PM »
While I think Bronto makes a product that works well in Europe, I think the size of the rig, and the size of the streets here in the city don't mesh. I know of a few departments in the states that have them. Try getting one of those down oh I dunno, 5th Avenue or Broadway during rush hour on a friday before a holiday weekend. Never mind the fact the city would have to put some reinforcement on the floor of any firehouse it's being quartered in. I've shot two of them in my travels. One in Phoenix and one in Anaheim. Impressive to look at, but not really sure how well it works for them. Made for some nice pics though. Grizz, there's a picture of it that Bill Friedrich took. It's in a book I have. If I could only find it.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 03:19:36 AM by FDNY150 »
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Offline HelsinkiFire

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 04:53:04 PM »
While I think Bronto makes a product that works well in Europe, I think the size of the rig, and the size of the streets here in the city don't mesh. I know of a few departments in the states that have them. Try getting one of those down oh I dunno, 5th Avenue or Broadway during rush hour on a friday before a holiday weekend. Never mind the fact the city would have to put some reinforcement on the floor of any firehouse it's being quartered in. I've shot two of them in my travels. One in Phoenix and one in Anaheim. Impressive to look at, but not really sure how well it works for them. Made for some nice pics though. Grizz, there's a picture of it that Bill Friedrich took. It's in a book I have. If I could only find it.
Your opinion of Brontos working better in Europe than in the States is a bit "wrong".
Our cities are alot older than yours (most of them) which usually means also smaller streets. US citys are often build for car/truck usage.
Our 500 years old citys. suprise suprise aren't. But that is just one opinion.
Traffic is then another issue also. But I'll think our Bronto trucks would fit fine to your busy Manhattan streets.
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Offline FDNY150

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 06:10:59 PM »
Then we will respectfully agree to disagree. What works there may not work here. Although, trust me, I was in my car today and it took me the better part of 15 minutes to get across town at 2 in the afternoon, and I was driving a car. So traffic would be an issue.
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Offline catry

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 06:59:33 PM »
The only place I could really see a Bronto being useful over a rearmount or a tower in NYC would be Coney Island, with its various amusement parks and oddly-shaped structures.  Beyond that, the extra reach doesn't really justify the added weight, wheelbase, lost compartment space, and extra setup time, especially with the FDNY's method of aggressive interior firefighting.  A building that would require a Bronto over a rearmount would probably be a fireproof high-rise anyway, where exterior ventilation and rescue might end up being counter-productive with wind-driven fires and whatnot.

To each their own, comparing apples and oranges and all that...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 07:03:36 PM by catry »

Bigandy

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 08:45:10 PM »
When I got on the job I loved climbing to the top of our 100 ft aerial. Now FORGET THAT! I'd rather safely be sitting in a bucket :D

Offline ladder197

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 09:42:15 PM »
That average weight of a 100' Eone bronto is 80,000lbs. Coming from a dept that has one I cant cant really see the cityhaving the need for one in front line truck co service, although the truck has an extremely tight turning radius,the short jack feature, and some other good features I mentioned in my last post, I dont think it could handle the daily beating the city streets would give the rig. It works great for us out here in the burbs. The outriggers fully extended is 19ft, there are a lot of cons vs. pros that just wouldnt work out in NYC. Set up time is a big down fall also.

Offline mack

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 09:52:49 PM »
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 09:55:49 PM by mack »

Offline HelsinkiFire

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Re: High Ladders
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2010, 02:19:18 AM »
The only place I could really see a Bronto being useful over a rearmount or a tower in NYC would be Coney Island, with its various amusement parks and oddly-shaped structures.  Beyond that, the extra reach doesn't really justify the added weight, wheelbase, lost compartment space, and extra setup time, especially with the FDNY's method of aggressive interior firefighting.  A building that would require a Bronto over a rearmount would probably be a fireproof high-rise anyway, where exterior ventilation and rescue might end up being counter-productive with wind-driven fires and whatnot.

To each their own, comparing apples and oranges and all that...
Good points there. It's a fact that Bronto-type trucks don't have compartment space and they sure are heavier.
And you don't use ladders as much as we do (for example water rescue etc.) so you don't need the extra reach as you sayd.
You do it your way, we do it our way.
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