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General Category => Questions And Answers => Topic started by: kfd274 on January 23, 2012, 11:40:36 PM

Title: Airport Emegencies
Post by: kfd274 on January 23, 2012, 11:40:36 PM
Report  1/23/2012   around 22:48

AIRPORT ALERT

(QUEENS - ) INBOUND DELTA FLIGHT 145 SOB DECLARING IN FLIGHT EMERGENCY 1 ENGINE OUT, COMPANIES STAGING.

Comment:   I imagine that the units staging are the PAPD crash vehicles.


Question:  When JFK and LaGuardia have an emergency such as this, is FDNY notified, and do they stage somewhere  at the airport?
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: guitarman314 on January 23, 2012, 11:49:24 PM
Yes, for JFK Airport there are signs along the Belt Pkwy showing the way to staging area for JFK box 269
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: kfd274 on January 24, 2012, 10:15:08 AM
Yes, for JFK Airport there are signs along the Belt Pkwy showing the way to staging area for JFK box 269

I understand that.  My questions is when PAPD has an incident like this, do they automatically call FDNY to staging?
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: AuxWarYearsCapt on January 24, 2012, 04:17:27 PM
I can not figure out why the automatic second alarm for box 269 was not transmitted for this incident. There have been similar cases at JFK  and the automatic second has been transmitted. We are the backup engine for the hose wagon that is located at E 308. Also the main response into the airport is the van wyck exp which has signs posted along it with 269 on it. I have not heard box 269 transmitted in quite awhile, which I no is a good thing.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: 68jk09 on January 24, 2012, 08:06:21 PM
Port Authority "USED TO "  call FDNY automatically by transmitting box 269 which was an automatic Second Alarm........  in the years following 9-11the P.A. has been rolling the dice & flexing their muscle........eventually someone will get hurt.....the Airports in NYC should have FDNY  Members  manning the crash crew like it was years ago.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: FD347 on January 25, 2012, 01:07:48 AM
The boxes (269 and 37) are not under PAPD control. They are in the control tower and are for the FAA personnel to use. I don't know what their guidelines call for before they can pull the box.

PAPD historically doesn't like anyone on their land. Back in the late 80's when I was a TLC inspector  we had to ask their permission to come onto the property to inspect cabs. They said we can write all the tickets we want but they take all collars. Great racket.

Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: 68jk09 on January 25, 2012, 01:29:28 AM
Agreed the boxes are in the control tower however i think the P.A. has influence in lack of transmission's & they definitly physically control the gates.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Kye994 on January 26, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
An aircraft emergency is declared by the pilot and they will advise if they are requesting emergency equipment or not.  Often times pilots will not request emergency equipment but by FAA guidelines once the air traffic control tower is made aware of the incident they have to notify rescue equipment.

Here are some basic definitions for you all (not official):

Aircraft Alert:  Any Aircraft incident where the emergency notification to the Police Desk is made via the direct “Crash Phone” from the FAA Air Traffic Control Tower (ATCT).  The Air Traffic Controller at the ATCT generally assigns the call type based on established protocols.  The FDNY receives all these calls as well.

Call 3-2:  A minor aircraft problem.  Even though the pilot has declared an
emergency they often are not requesting assistance from ARFF crews.

Call 3-3:  Declared when a potentially serious aircraft problem which may effect the flight controls of the aircraft or indicate a fire of other emergency situation.

Call 3-4:  An actual Crash or Major Fire involving an aircraft.  This will generate a major inter-agency mutual aid response.

Aircraft Emergency:  A potentially serious aircraft problem which may effect the flight controls of the aircraft or indicate a fire of other emergency situation.  Can also be declared by the pilot for other situations such as a seriously ill person, etc.  This is generally at the Pilot’s discretion.

As for the PAPD alert responses:  The level of the alert in general is decided by the air traffic control tower personnel.  The PAPD Tour Commander has the ability to upgrade it if they feel it is warranted. 

The vast majority of calls are stand-by responses.  the most common alerts are as a result of electronic indicators.  The most common "fire" emergencies are smoke conditions, the majority of which have alleviated prior to landing.  Planes land rather routinely with landing gear problems and engine problems.  All told, the JFK crews head out the door over 300 times per year and flow product less than 1 dozen times a year.  The vast majority of all situations aren't handled by firefighting interventions but by maintenance crews.

The SOP is quite clear.  The PAPD crews are the first responders.  The job is to knock down as much fire as possible and create evacuation paths for any survivors who can self-evacuate.  Once the initial attack is made, the FDNY takes over operations.  The PAPD Tour Commander remains as the overall incident commander (inter-agency protocol) and FDNY is the operations section.  It is unfortunate that there is no more inter-agency drills.  Anyone who actually comes down to the airport and deals with the PAPD patrol force and doesn't believe everything they read on the internet will find out that the PAPD cops do the job they are trained to do and have no problem with the FDNY coming when they are needed.  That's the rub.  WHEN THEY ARE NEEDED.  It's very difficult for a lot of firefighters to understand that.  Whether it is FDNY crews that should be there or PAPD crews that is decision far above anyone who will ever post on this board.

As far as access to the airport, the FDNY is only restricted from entering the airside of the facility.  this is NOT the PA's doing, it is an FAA requirement.  There is a protocol now for FDNY to be escorted to all incidents from 3 different staging areas for FDNY's conveinece.  the only time that 269 is the mandatory response is on activation of the 2-2.  Over the last few months a lot of effort has gone into making a better PAPD/FDNY relationship at JFK.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to post them.  I will not "debate" anything nor do I wish to engage in any conflict but I will answer any questions for you as best as possible.

PS:  PAPD & TLC run joint operations now several times a year.  Any collars TLC generates they take it and they process it themselves at 269.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: memory master on January 26, 2012, 04:02:42 PM
Excellent info. Thank you sir!
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: raybrag on January 26, 2012, 09:11:05 PM
Thanx from me, too, Kye994. Just the same as I remember when I was flying. Also . . . at Army & Air Force installations with an airfield, the local FD was allowed to operate BY INVITATION ONLY. Of course, there were mutual aid agreements, and the relations between the military & local FDs were usually very good. Not much different. Just takes a little understanding.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: IRISH on January 26, 2012, 10:20:45 PM

Recent Airport Emergency at Shannon Airport, County Clare - Ireland involving a US Air Force C130 which had declared an Emergency following engine trouble.

Top Photo: Shannon Airport Fire & Rescue Service ARFF staging just off the runway. At the rear of the photo is Shannon Town Fire Station's Alpha 1 which was dispatched following the Emergency declaration.

Bottom Photo: Shannon Airport Fire & Rescue Service ARFF & Shannon Town's Alpha 1 following the C130 off the runway

(http://s14.postimage.org/pkr38ui7x/shannon_2.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/pkr38ui7x/)

(http://s15.postimage.org/tcnmrvetj/shannon_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/tcnmrvetj/)


As far as i know in Ireland when an aircraft declares an Emergency local units are dispatched to the airport and to a separate holding area (staging area) just outside the airport.

Its usually 2 Engines 1 Rescue & District Officer (Battalion Chief)



Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: grumpy grizzly on January 27, 2012, 05:59:30 PM
Info for Chicago. An enroute emergency triggers a still-and-box response. O'Hare response is: from E-9 9 and Squad 7, 2 peice unit. E-10 ARFF units 654,655,656. TL-63: ARFF units 653,657,658. Also a still and box response from the city, E-11/T9 will be first due, along with other suppression units. Info on all unit can be found at Chicagoareafire.com, click on and go to MABAS 9, then go to Chicago. Hope u ejoy. One peice of info, public policy changed from CrashFireRescue to AirportFireRescue. CFR=AFRR.

























rescue



fire




fighting
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: kfd274 on January 27, 2012, 06:21:54 PM
What is interesting about Chicago O Hare Airport is the fact that CFD operated the fire fighting crash trucks and rescues
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: grumpy grizzly on January 27, 2012, 06:34:10 PM
Yes and No. All O'Hare and Midway personnel are CFD personnel. But the US Government buys and support all ARFF rigs (not E-9, 10 TL 63 and Midway E-127) E-127 does have a still response district as an engine company. Also Sq-7 does have a response area depending on fire conditions. During the strike these personnel were forbidden to strike, the government paid your salaries and brought your rigs.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: 68jk09 on January 27, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
The fact remains in NYC the Port Authority is very busy trying to flex it's muscle.....not only at JFK & LAG but also at the WTC site as well as on the bridges....i have seen how this has grown for quite awhile now....way too much chest beating & politics & the public suffers....this includes Haz Mat incidents on PA property also.....i first started being involved in the '70s w/the JFK drills where the ENGs participated w/the Crash Crew in a relay drill & the LADs & Rescue went to a hangar containing mockups & pieces of all different aircraft sections....these were very well thought out & informative drills...through the years the relay drills have mostly remained the same however the search & rescue portion for the LADs & Rescue have  been eroded to not much more than entering  a single type of plane that is parked for maintenance & is being cleaned inside by workers at the same time the FDNY is doing a walkthrough....or on some days just getting involved w/the relay drill which is not the LADs & Rescue's mission gaining access & laddering a fuselage to facilitate handline attack if need be & conducting searches.......  no hands on & no real info as it used to be.....some of the PA members that i know from the early days are big bosses now.....when asked in the '90s what happened to the hangar w/the mockups etc the answer is we were told not to let FDNY have access ......the LAG interagency drills in the last few years have been very strange also....they seem to be orchestrated  to make it appear that the PA appears superior to FD & NYPD ESU...this should not be the focus....it should be for all too learn & come away w/some added knowledge....i have been to several plane crashes both on & off both airports .....at these responses there is plenty to do & very little conflict once the work starts....the problem now is obvious delayed notification.....playing catchup is dangerous to all.......we are all there to do a job....if an agency cannot work w/another that is a problem.....the PA is not big enough to complete the mission on their own in a serious situation...they do need FDNY & NYPD help......of course we are not going to run helter skelter through the airport....we stage & standby for orders......staging needed units AT the  time of the first indication of a serious incident is the most safe & productive method not waiting till the situation escalates & requesting help that may be spread out a distance.....i have responded to many incidents..... staged & got sent home....no big deal...i would rather be there & not used then to be needed & be elswhere.       
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Kye994 on January 27, 2012, 11:55:58 PM
68JK09,

you do make some very valid points.  It's a shame there are no more inter-agency drills.  I wish I could be more specific but all I can say there is effort being made at JFK to improve the relationship with FDNY. 
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: IRISH on January 28, 2012, 12:08:31 AM

Would the PA ARFF Trucks respond if a plane came down just outside the airport grounds??
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Kye994 on January 28, 2012, 12:13:35 AM

Would the PA ARFF Trucks respond if a plane came down just outside the airport grounds??
  Yes there is a "secondary response area" immediately around the perimeter of the airport, but off the top of my head I can't tell you the street boundaries.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: SYRACUSETRUCK3-2010 on November 27, 2014, 01:05:06 AM
Per Fire Apparatus Journal in the July/August 2013 Apparatus News Briefs

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the agency responsible for providing aircraft fire rescue services at JFK, and LaGuardia Airports in NYC, and Newark Liberty International Airport and Teterboro Airports in New Jersey has been fined 3.5 million dollars by the Federal Aviation Administration and has agreed to form a separate firefighting unit outside the Police Department.  The fire apparatus at the airports was staffed by Port Authority Police Officers.  The fines stem from a failure to show that these police officers were adequately trained and certified to fight fires.  The new fire department is to be in operation by March 31, 2014. ©FAJ Publications 2013

So can someone please explain to me what the old apparatus roster was,for these four airports and what the current roster is including make, model, unit identifier and number, pump size, water/foam/pkp if so equipped, haltron if so equipped, snozzle if so equipped?

I havent heard hyde nor hare of anything about this since it was posted any more info would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: BCR on November 27, 2014, 01:19:41 AM
If I remember correctly the issue was that the fire dept was being cross started by the police dept and know one was specifically detailed to fire only (I think cant remember 100%) the port authority also did not have adequate records of training etc. I believe they were mandated to have a dedicated fire department in staff at all times, not on duty cops that would respond to the fire if they were not on a police call. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what I heard the issue was. Personally I would have liked to see the crash rescue go to fdny for the New York depts, which I think would have helped with the rivalry the port authority has with the fdny. As far as the vehicles I don't think anything has changed or is going to change.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on November 27, 2014, 05:17:33 PM
BCR, you are correct about what the problem with the CFR units was.  Although as Syracuse mentioned I really haven't heard much about what changes were made to correct the problems.  It certainly would have made more sense to put the CFR resources under FDNY for many reasons including training and making the chain of command during a major incident much smoother but we all know that the Port Authority won't ever give up any control to anybody for any reason.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: aussiegeorge on January 01, 2015, 02:26:49 PM
What I don't understand is why is a police dept manning fire rescue units?
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on January 01, 2015, 04:12:24 PM
What I don't understand is why is a police dept manning fire rescue units?
Because this is New York City and lots of things are set up strangely there!  The police try to take over everything, in addition to CFR, the NYPD ESU units also have hazmat capabilities and extrication equipment.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: NYBravest82 on January 01, 2015, 07:16:41 PM
so does this mean FDNY may finally take over?
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on January 01, 2015, 09:19:33 PM
so does this mean FDNY may finally take over?
That's doubtful, the report highlighting the problems with issued a long time ago and if an FDNY takeover of the CFR responsibilities was going to happen it would've already happened.  I'm sure that the PA is just changing some of their procedures but not getting rid of the responsibility.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: nfd2004 on January 01, 2015, 10:33:59 PM
Well, as I try to remember, didn't the NYPD take over the Housing Police and Transit Police, which were all separate police departments within the city.

And didn't the FDNY take over the ambulance service from the city's Health and Hospitals group.

The City of New York is in a class all by itself. Nobody compares to it. I think New York City has FOUR area codes. How many cities have that ? How many "STATES" have that ? I have confidence in the fact that somebody knows what they are doing and they will do the right thing as they see fit.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: FD347 on January 02, 2015, 02:08:22 AM
Quote
I have confidence in the fact that somebody knows what they are doing and they will do the right thing as they see fit.


I guess you're an optimist.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on January 02, 2015, 11:06:29 AM
The City of New York is in a class all by itself. Nobody compares to it. I think New York City has FOUR area codes. How many cities have that ? How many "STATES" have that ? I have confidence in the fact that somebody knows what they are doing and they will do the right thing as they see fit.
Unfortunately, many times bigger and doesn't mean better.  Large organizations quite often get on we only because of size.  Different parts don't want to work with other parts because they are so big themselves.  That's been demonstrated many times in NYC especially between NYPD and FDNY.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: dan on January 03, 2015, 11:21:53 AM
The PA of NY and NJ is a bi-state agency that reports to the governors of both NY and NJ. They are not a NYC agency. For the last 12-18 months they have been transitioning to a civilian Fire Department separate from the PAPD. I believe some of the CFR cops will still be allowed to be detailed to the CFR crews. They are using the current vehicles. FDNY is not trained or equipped for ARFF. Nor will that be changing in our lifetime. In NYC, FDNY augments the fire protection, rescue and water supply, provides structural fire protection when notified and provides EMS when PAPD EMS at JFK are busy or the NSLIJ units at LGA are unavailable.  The PA is also taking over Stewart Airport in Orange County and is taking over Atlantic City International as well. They were stretching their PD thin using them in the ARFF numbers and were caught which is one of the reasons for the separate civilian FD.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on January 03, 2015, 12:35:54 PM
The PA of NY and NJ is a bi-state agency that reports to the governors of both NY and NJ. They are not a NYC agency. For the last 12-18 months they have been transitioning to a civilian Fire Department separate from the PAPD. I believe some of the CFR cops will still be allowed to be detailed to the CFR crews. They are using the current vehicles. FDNY is not trained or equipped for ARFF. Nor will that be changing in our lifetime. In NYC, FDNY augments the fire protection, rescue and water supply, provides structural fire protection when notified and provides EMS when PAPD EMS at JFK are busy or the NSLIJ units at LGA are unavailable.  The PA is also taking over Stewart Airport in Orange County and is taking over Atlantic City International as well. They were stretching their PD thin using them in the ARFF numbers and were caught which is one of the reasons for the separate civilian FD.
This is what I guess was happening based on the lack of information being provided to the general public.  I still believe however it's in the best interest of fire protection at the airports.  There still will be to command structures managing fire operations during a major event.  One of these have years of experience with an extremely deep command structure, the other has very limited experience in fire operations and extremely limited depth in its command structure.  These airports are part of a very small group that did not have CFR operations handled by the local fire departments.  In addition as you mentioned some of the PAPD officers may be crosstrained to cover for vacancies.  If FDNY or the local fire departments in NJ took over they potentially would have many more members available to cover vacancies.  Which one would you rather have responded to an airport emergency especially if you are on the plane?
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: NYBravest82 on January 04, 2015, 12:30:00 PM
The PA of NY and NJ is a bi-state agency that reports to the governors of both NY and NJ. They are not a NYC agency. For the last 12-18 months they have been transitioning to a civilian Fire Department separate from the PAPD. I believe some of the CFR cops will still be allowed to be detailed to the CFR crews. They are using the current vehicles. FDNY is not trained or equipped for ARFF. Nor will that be changing in our lifetime. In NYC, FDNY augments the fire protection, rescue and water supply, provides structural fire protection when notified and provides EMS when PAPD EMS at JFK are busy or the NSLIJ units at LGA are unavailable.  The PA is also taking over Stewart Airport in Orange County and is taking over Atlantic City International as well. They were stretching their PD thin using them in the ARFF numbers and were caught which is one of the reasons for the separate civilian FD.
This is what I guess was happening based on the lack of information being provided to the general public.  I still believe however it's in the best interest of fire protection at the airports.  There still will be to command structures managing fire operations during a major event.  One of these have years of experience with an extremely deep command structure, the other has very limited experience in fire operations and extremely limited depth in its command structure.  These airports are part of a very small group that did not have CFR operations handled by the local fire departments.  In addition as you mentioned some of the PAPD officers may be crosstrained to cover for vacancies.  If FDNY or the local fire departments in NJ took over they potentially would have many more members available to cover vacancies.  Which one would you rather have responded to an airport emergency especially if you are on the plane?

i'd go with the department that has "fire" in its name in addition to 150 years of experience. Just seems more logical to me. If i'm on a plane, which would be a feat in and of itself, i'd have a better peace of mind if i saw a truck that said "FIRE RESCUE" instead of "POLICE" and in tiny letters under "fire rescue"...i mean, it just makes logical sense to at LEAST have FDNY trained members doing this. They train for everything else under the sun. Shouldn't be a pride or money issue, but this isn't a perfect world, and i think everyone knows the PA is anything but a perfect agency.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: KEB525 on February 18, 2015, 09:23:33 PM
For the last 12-18 months they have been transitioning to a civilian Fire Department separate from the PAPD. I believe some of the CFR cops will still be allowed to be detailed to the CFR crews…….They were stretching their PD thin using them in the ARFF numbers and were caught which is one of the reasons for the separate civilian FD.
  Dan…where did you get your information?  No offense, YOU ARE 100% DEAD WRONG.  The Port Authority ARFF trucks are STILL 100% staffed by PAPD police personnel.  There is NOT ONE SINGLE CIVILIAN on any ARFF apparatus. The only operational changes made is the PA INCREASED the number of firefighters to each shift and each truck!!!  PAPD didn't lose a single spot and in fact gained quite a few.  The police officers assigned to "police patrol" are still cross trained as ARFF and will respond to augment the ARFF trucks as the first step to mutual aid while FDNY (or NJ dept's) are responding.  And for those of you that don't know the FAA does NOT mandate how fire protection is provided or how many "firefighters" respond, they simply require "X" amount of product be "on scene" in "X" amount of time.  Staffing was never inadequate.
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Atlas on February 19, 2015, 11:13:20 PM
There is a big difference from working in the fire service at an airport compared to being in a local fire station.

Growing up in an FDNY fire house & then spending time while in the Air Force as a member of the Fire Rescue service at an active SAC base home to over 120 bombers, tankers, Air National Guard fighters, Army helicopters, in addition to housing private aircraft & have our runways used by several airlines, we were kept busy. Some times we had 20 or more runs a day for runway stand-by's & various calls. We did not handle any EMS calls. We provided coverage to all the building's on base, two off base - housing areas, an off base ammo storage area, besides a school & a hospital. We also supported 2 Army Nike sites, & over a dozen remote AF facilities so 50 miles away.  Like JFK,  we had a very long runway, over ten thousand feet. The base became a site which the space ships could land in case of an emergency. We were connected to the local town, a state capital, what had a 10 station paid department. Every other dept in the area was volunteer so we did run mutual aid calls into the main town. The paid dept also supported our mission when needed.   

Our dept worked out of 4 stations. Three were dual stations that covered both structure & crash. Only one station was totally dedicated to structure with two engines assigned.

Our manning called for 5 firefighters on crash trucks. The most I ever saw was 3. The driver, crew chief, & a hand line man. We had a light rescue that could only carry a crew of two. No ladder trucks, but today some bases have one. Some of the crash trucks ran with only the driver who also was responsible for operating the remote nozzles on each of the trucks. With dual engines, we could pump & roll at the same time.

I was recently talking with a chief in a medium size paid dept who provides local airport coverage for an active airport. They do not have the manning for each rig that we would think that they should have. That is why PAPD sends trained police officers in their police vehicle to assist crash truck crews.  Yes, JFK has two stations while LGA has only one. From what I learned reading this subject tonight is that PA has increased the manning on the trucks. If FDNY took over providing coverage at the airport, I don't think that we would see an increase in the manning. The new crash rescue vehicles are set up for one person operation. Depending upon their extinguishing operation expect to see them operate for about two minutes before run out of water. Our structure rigs & tankers would be responsible for re-supplying the water. The trucks were designed to carry addition foam before that tank ran dry. We were able to refill two or more times before heading back to the station or a tanker for additional foam.

Today PAPD has come a long way just like FDNY has in the past few years. Increase training is needed so that FDNY can lean the dangers of working on an airport. It is a different world out there... Remember that you just can't drive around on their ground like we do on a city street.

Like all the other airports, PAPD is required to meet the FAA requirements for extinguishing the fire. The question asked is can the Crash Rescue team handle the aircraft that use the field? With their assigned equipment, I think that they can.

I want to thank KYE 994 for his updated insight into Port Authority Operation & if your first name began with a 'B' then I think we have worked together before. 
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: Bulldog on February 20, 2015, 10:56:46 AM
Atlas, I certainly agree with everything you said about the differences between CFR and conventional structural responses.  However there certainly is a lot bigger relationship between those 2 types of firefighting than there is between CFR and police activities.  I still believe that having the CFR function integrated into the FDNY or other local fire service makes a lot more sense than it does integrating it with the police side of operations.  It makes sense for no other reason than the fact that in the event of a major emergency the chain of command for suppression and rescue is a lot more seamless!
Title: Re: Airport Emegencies
Post by: KEB525 on February 23, 2015, 07:21:15 PM


I want to thank KYE 994 for his updated insight into Port Authority Operation & if your first name began with a 'B' then I think we have worked together before.
  Yes, it's me