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General Category => Apparatus => Topic started by: Sfdc111 on August 17, 2018, 01:53:00 PM

Title: Engine 165
Post by: Sfdc111 on August 17, 2018, 01:53:00 PM
Well Iíd have to say itís official, saw photos today of Engine 165 in a 2010 Seagrave Marauder II (SP10009) 154ís old engine. Iíd have to say thatís the end of the speculation as to what will be done with the trucks. Not my photo, found on Facebook, posted by Texaron.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Sfdc111 on August 17, 2018, 01:55:42 PM
Having an issue attaching the photos so here is the Facebook line to the post.

https://m.facebook.com/966183590202152/photos/pcb.1183821765104999/1183821735105002/?type=3&source=48
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on August 17, 2018, 02:03:10 PM
so this means that the squad body apparatus is going to be used as the new squad 154  and the transition has been already started ( by swapping vehicles with 154 ), is that what you are sharing ?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Sfdc111 on August 17, 2018, 02:05:20 PM
so this means that the squad body apparatus is going to be used as the new squad 154  and the transition has been already started, is that what you are sharing ?

I would have to say so, this truck was the former engine assigned to 154, and is now labeled as 165, it would appear they are swapping the 2014 squad like engine from 165 to 154.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: FDNYSTATENISLAND on August 17, 2018, 02:05:40 PM
Correct. 165ís squad style rig is going to 154 and 154ís rig is now E165. Now, as for the captain that asked for 165 to have a squad style rig in the first place, back to square 1 lol.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: IRISH on August 17, 2018, 03:57:30 PM
Do ye mean that Engine 165 old Squad Body Engine is now becoming the new Squad 8??? ??? :o?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on August 17, 2018, 04:01:04 PM
yes, its becoming the 8th squad, but l think its going to be squad 154
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: JA290 on August 17, 2018, 06:18:55 PM
It will be squad 8.  Not 154
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 17, 2018, 06:33:16 PM
It will be squad 8.  Not 154
Do you have any solid information supporting that?  Based on recent history calling it Squad 154 seems more likely.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on August 17, 2018, 08:57:45 PM
A reliable source reported it will be SQ*8 however no other existing SQs will be renumbered .....who can figure anything out in todays blizzaro FDNY ?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 17, 2018, 09:06:40 PM
A reliable source reported it will be SQ*8 however no other existing SQs will be renumbered .....who can figure anything out in todays blizzaro FDNY ?
Yes, if that's the case it would certainly be a change in direction but that's nothing unusual these days.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: AuxWarYearsCapt on August 18, 2018, 12:15:53 AM
For those who thought l was crazy when l stated that E 165 was going to swap rigs with E 154 ( New SQ Co. 8 ) soon.
It's ok I'm crazy anyway...
** New Squad for S.I. section
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: In2theJob on August 18, 2018, 10:19:20 AM
It will be squad 8.  Not 154
Do you have any solid information supporting that?  Based on recent history calling it Squad 154 seems more likely.

It was announced in the paper as being Squad 8.
Also another rumor I heard was that once the remaining squads will be renumbered with the new cad system. Could be just a bad rumor. Any dispatchers can confirm it deny?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 18, 2018, 11:45:38 AM
It was announced in the paper as being Squad 8.
Since we all know how accurately newspapers report things I'm sure most of us took leave story about the new squad was a huge grain of salt!
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: GFD70 on August 18, 2018, 06:41:37 PM
The sign they had on display at the announcement said Squad 8.

I heard a rumor that Seagrave would be building at least 1 new Squad rig. I wonder if the rig reassignment is only temporary until a new one is built. It would also wouldnít hurt to have a second spare Squad floating around when its all said and done.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on August 18, 2018, 07:34:07 PM
l figured it would be Seagrave and wondered the same thing about the switch being temporary since they said a new apparatus would be purchased.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 18, 2018, 09:21:42 PM
How about there second piece? There going to need a new one too are they going to use a bread truck for now thereís also that hmtu that was being built but no number in it I wonder if that was for a spare
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Signal73 on August 19, 2018, 04:06:24 PM
Photo from Doug Marra AKA AuxWarYearsCapt

(https://s22.postimg.cc/6klrf0i59/8_A313_F68-8978-4_CAC-8_C5_D-_FEEB7556_C105.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6klrf0i59/)
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 21, 2018, 02:54:33 PM
Since there taking away 165 squad style rig I hope they are expediting the order to replace it and I wonder if the other hmtu engines will follow suit
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on August 21, 2018, 03:49:33 PM
i  hope  they  expedite it too
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 21, 2018, 04:53:22 PM
Why is everybody pushing so hard for 165 to get a new squad type rig ASAP?  They are the only and & Co. in the cities that I'm aware of that has a squad type rig, why should they be so special?  Especially now that there is going to be a true Squad on the island.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 21, 2018, 06:50:39 PM
Well the Capt of that hmtu engine requested it for s reason that was to carry the extra gear I donít think they were trying to. A squad most  fire Dept are going rescue style engines anyways I bet in five Years fdny goes to an all rescue style engine. Iím just surprised the other hmtu engines didnít ask for one too
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 21, 2018, 06:53:01 PM
Why was fdny not prepared for this transition anyways? Weíre is the spare squad or reserve squad they could have used why take away from a unit that is already established. Poor planning just my opinion
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: NYBravest82 on August 24, 2018, 09:38:53 AM
It was announced in the paper as being Squad 8.
Since we all know how accurately newspapers report things I'm sure most of us took leave story about the new squad was a huge grain of salt!

Thew news media reported on the facts that were presented with the press conference, but sure, go ahead and baselessly blame the media for doing their job.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on August 24, 2018, 09:50:35 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 25, 2018, 10:47:20 AM
I wonder if rescue 5 will keep there current status
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 25, 2018, 12:40:43 PM
I wonder if rescue 5 will keep there current status
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't, they are going to remain a full-fledged rescue company.  That incident might changes that they may be pulled off the island a little more often during major incidents as long as the squad is still in service.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 25, 2018, 12:51:32 PM
Sorry I was referring to there hazmat status
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: JA290 on August 27, 2018, 12:29:31 AM
Sorry I was referring to there hazmat status

Rescue 5 is no longer a primary hazmat tech unit, and is only to be used if e165 is unavailable in SI,
And 250 and sq1&252 are unavailable in the 40,42&43 battalions
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: TLTruckie on August 27, 2018, 12:28:05 PM
Sorry I was referring to there hazmat status

Rescue 5 is no longer a primary hazmat tech unit, and is only to be used if e165 is unavailable in SI,
And 250 and sq1&252 are unavailable in the 40,42&43 battalions
R-5 will be like all the rest of the Rescue Comp now , still trained as HazMat tech but won't be primary response , Sq-8 & E-165 will be primary for Haz Mat on. SI.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 27, 2018, 12:42:06 PM
Thx
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 27, 2018, 12:45:09 PM
I bet squad 8 gets rescue 5 bread truck for the interim until they get a new second piece.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 27, 2018, 03:46:21 PM
I mentioned early that Ferrara was making a New hmtu unit according to faj it was delivered but nor assigned now Iím thinking it would go to squad 8 was it gets outfitted. The article states itís a little different then the regular hmtu second piece so Iím guessing maybe fdny is going with the custom 4 door rather then the freighliner. Maybe it will hold up a little better then the freight liners I hope.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 4 truck on August 27, 2018, 08:48:06 PM
So you have inside info that states the frieghtliners arenít holding up that well???
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 27, 2018, 09:03:15 PM
Freightliners in general
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: TLTruckie on August 28, 2018, 10:42:22 AM
Well the Capt of that hmtu engine requested it for s reason that was to carry the extra gear I donít think they were trying to. A squad most  fire Dept are going rescue style engines anyways I bet in five Years fdny goes to an all rescue style engine. Iím just surprised the other hmtu engines didnít ask for one too
I highly doubt that, the squad style rigs have some drawbacks , the two major ones are they are longer then the regular engines , so squeezing into tight place or trying to get on a hydrant and out of the way is very difficult for some of the Squads . Not totally sure but I believe they are at lest 3' longer . Three feet is a lot when your trying to get on a hydrant and keep your ass end from sticking out into the street .

  The second issue is the hose beds , they carry a lot less hose then normal engines and only three beds of hose off the back step ...only one 1 3/4 bed !  Being third due to on of the Squads truly sucks ! There's no pulling just past the fire building and dropping TWO 1 3/4 lines and driving to the hydrant (Back stretching). Most of the engines that are second or third due to a Squad have to carry lengths of folded up 1 3/4 hose , hump then to the back step of the Squad and hand connect their folded up hose then hand stretch to the front of the fire building.. A true pain in the ass and a delay in getting the
second line into operation .

  Engine Ops is still the bread n butter of the HMTU Engine company , so I'm pretty sure those Capt would perfer a normal rig and get the wet stuff on the red stuff much easier !
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 28, 2018, 11:04:11 AM
Thank you for enlightening me
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: FDNYSTATENISLAND on August 28, 2018, 11:14:10 AM
Well the Capt of that hmtu engine requested it for s reason that was to carry the extra gear I donít think they were trying to. A squad most  fire Dept are going rescue style engines anyways I bet in five Years fdny goes to an all rescue style engine. Iím just surprised the other hmtu engines didnít ask for one too
I highly doubt that, the squad style rigs have some drawbacks , the two major ones are they are longer then the regular engines , so squeezing into tight place or trying to get on a hydrant and out of the way is very difficult for some of the Squads . Not totally sure but I believe they are at lest 3' longer . Three feet is a lot when your trying to get on a hydrant and keep your ass end from sticking out into the street .

  The second issue is the hose beds , they carry a lot less hose then normal engines and only three beds of hose off the back step ...only one 1 3/4 bed !  Being third due to on of the Squads truly sucks ! There's no pulling just past the fire building and dropping TWO 1 3/4 lines and driving to the hydrant (Back stretching). Most of the engines that are second or third due to a Squad have to carry lengths of folded up 1 3/4 hose , hump then to the back step of the Squad and hand connect their folded up hose then hand stretch to the front of the fire building.. A true pain in the ass and a delay in getting the
second line into operation .

  Engine Ops is still the bread n butter of the HMTU Engine company , so I'm pretty sure those Capt would perfer a normal rig and get the wet stuff on the red stuff much easier !
I never realized that companies than run in with E165 had to do this simply to stretch lines. Namely E162, E159, E161, E163 all companies that run in 2nd-3rd Due with 165. Iím sure when 165 gets 154s old rig, itíll be a flashback to simpler times when at a job 😂
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: turk132 on August 28, 2018, 11:36:43 AM
Well the Capt of that hmtu engine requested it for s reason that was to carry the extra gear I donít think they were trying to. A squad most  fire Dept are going rescue style engines anyways I bet in five Years fdny goes to an all rescue style engine. Iím just surprised the other hmtu engines didnít ask for one too
I highly doubt that, the squad style rigs have some drawbacks , the two major ones are they are longer then the regular engines , so squeezing into tight place or trying to get on a hydrant and out of the way is very difficult for some of the Squads . Not totally sure but I believe they are at lest 3' longer . Three feet is a lot when your trying to get on a hydrant and keep your ass end from sticking out into the street .

  The second issue is the hose beds , they carry a lot less hose then normal engines and only three beds of hose off the back step ...only one 1 3/4 bed !  Being third due to on of the Squads truly sucks ! There's no pulling just past the fire building and dropping TWO 1 3/4 lines and driving to the hydrant (Back stretching). Most of the engines that are second or third due to a Squad have to carry lengths of folded up 1 3/4 hose , hump then to the back step of the Squad and hand connect their folded up hose then hand stretch to the front of the fire building.. A true pain in the ass and a delay in getting the
second line into operation .

  Engine Ops is still the bread n butter of the HMTU Engine company , so I'm pretty sure those Capt would perfer a normal rig and get the wet stuff on the red stuff much easier !


I have been out for a while, but the Squads in the Bronx carried folded up lengths of 1 3/4" hose with a nozzle and reducer in the roll up compartment on the backstep for a second line. There was no need for 2nd or 3rd due to bring hose to the rig for a second line.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: TLTruckie on August 28, 2018, 11:49:50 AM
Well the Capt of that hmtu engine requested it for s reason that was to carry the extra gear I donít think they were trying to. A squad most  fire Dept are going rescue style engines anyways I bet in five Years fdny goes to an all rescue style engine. Iím just surprised the other hmtu engines didnít ask for one too
I highly doubt that, the squad style rigs have some drawbacks , the two major ones are they are longer then the regular engines , so squeezing into tight place or trying to get on a hydrant and out of the way is very difficult for some of the Squads . Not totally sure but I believe they are at lest 3' longer . Three feet is a lot when your trying to get on a hydrant and keep your ass end from sticking out into the street .

  The second issue is the hose beds , they carry a lot less hose then normal engines and only three beds of hose off the back step ...only one 1 3/4 bed !  Being third due to on of the Squads truly sucks ! There's no pulling just past the fire building and dropping TWO 1 3/4 lines and driving to the hydrant (Back stretching). Most of the engines that are second or third due to a Squad have to carry lengths of folded up 1 3/4 hose , hump then to the back step of the Squad and hand connect their folded up hose then hand stretch to the front of the fire building.. A true pain in the ass and a delay in getting the
second line into operation .

  Engine Ops is still the bread n butter of the HMTU Engine company , so I'm pretty sure those Capt would perfer a normal rig and get the wet stuff on the red stuff much easier !


I have been out for a while, but the Squads in the Bronx carried folded up lengths of 1 3/4" hose with a nozzle and reducer in the roll up compartment on the backstep for a second line. There was no need for 2nd or 3rd due to bring hose to the rig for a second line.
That may still be true , not sure either but either way it's more work for the second or third due eng.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 28, 2018, 02:08:56 PM
Whatís the reason for the other engines to bring there hose is there not enough on a engines e to run a second line? I know there safety and back up issues if the engine fails but it sound like the end of the world to have to stretch a line if thereís a squad first due
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: BCR on August 28, 2018, 03:06:00 PM
They have to bring there line because here isnít another 1 3/4 line on the squad style rigs. All engine companyís hose beds have a bed of 3 1/2 inch hose, a bed of 2 1/2 inch hose and 2 seperate beds of 6 lengths of 1 3/4 attached to 2 1/2. The Squad rigs only have 1 bed of the 1 3/4. When the engines are first in and pump the job the engine can drop the 2 - 1 3/4 lines and lay away to a hydrant. The second or 3rd due company will then operate the second line. The squad rigs donít have that ability so for a second line to get in place the 2nd or 3rd due company has to pull hose off there rig and drag it down the block to connect to the squad. Extremely time consuming especially on tight streets where he second or third due may be parked.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 28, 2018, 03:12:58 PM
Ok got it make sense now thx
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: TLTruckie on August 28, 2018, 07:21:00 PM
The second or third due eng will have to disconnect the nozzle on the 2 1/2 " hose bed and connect a reducer and the needed lengths of 1 3/4" hose & nozzle. Then hand stretch back to the front of the fire building , as aposed to just walking up to the front of the building and finding the second line waiting for you in the street just feet from the front door.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on August 28, 2018, 08:46:45 PM
I am not sure how many ENGs drop 2 lines IFO the bldg anymore (& that would not be necessary if the Hydrant was in close proximity) however i remember when i was in BN*46 & SQ*288  received a new Rescue Pumper they had 2 lengths of 1 3/4 with a 15/16ths Nozzle & Reducer attached in the compartment below the Hose Bed (in the rear step area where the old Booster Reel used to be located on pre 1987 ENGs).....this simplified the 2nd stretch & was a point i always brought out whenever i would have a conversation with a Covering Officer was working in the area......just another fact like making sure Members from other Units  knew where the Tormentor controls were located on one of the few remaining Tiller Rigs... (they were on the Turntable back then) .
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 28, 2018, 09:16:58 PM
How many lines can an engine usually handle
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on August 28, 2018, 11:13:24 PM
How many lines can an engine usually handle
Thats a good question...it is really not about what an ENG can handle but what the FDNY mandates today...the FDNY now teaches no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper.....however this is constantly questioned by those in the street...todays Pumpers are much more capable than those Pumpers of old which i have seen with 5 lines off a Pumper (some that had the 5th line off the tip of the old pre piped Deck Guns)....one of the problems (or maybe the biggest close call)  i had when i was still working after  this "edict" of no more than 2 lines stretched off a Pumper came down was at a Fire with one of my CPT's almost trapped....the question then & still today ..." how many of the 1st two  lines are actually flowing water at the time a 3rd might be stretched ?."...not to beleauger the issue but i had submitted reports to get the "written in stone " edict amended (to no avail) but as a quick example of the one most serious situation i had...a Fire in a mattress store on the ground floor of a 3 sty frame with apts above....as per FDNY protocol for 2 1/2 in a commercial occupancy the 1st Line was a 2 1/2 in the store on the 1st fl  & the 2nd Line a 2 1/2 into the basement sales area of the store....all visible Fire was knocked down in both the original store & it's basement sales area (as well as the store in exp 2)....however hidden Fire had extended via pipe chases & or balloon framing wall spaces to the cockloft of the original bldg & exposure 2...as the 2nd floor ceiling was pulled Fire was erupting into the 2nd fl with Members above on the 3rd fl & Roof  i ordered a standby ENG to get another line to the 2nd fl (multi apts above both stores with oddball entrance stairways none facing exp 1...long story short their  Officer went to the 2nd fl where they were going to operate & they went to the nearest Pumper who told them he already had 2 lines off (actually neither was flowing water as  AVFKD in the store & basement had been knocked down) so they go to the next Pumper who attempts to refuse them also as he says he has 2 lines off .... at the same time their Officer who went to the 2nd fl now becomes forced to the front window as the room is taking off ...(he was looking for a FF who had been seen from the street pulling a ceiling originally when this went South) their ECC (a very Senior FF) seeing they did not get a line from the nearest Pumper runs to the 2nd Pumper & tells the ECC we are taking a line & you will supply it...i did not understand what the delay was at the time but i wanted a Line so i had an ENG who was in exp 4 2nd fl (now knocked down) bring their 1 3/4 out & up a portable into the window where the CPT was & they knocked down the Fire ....everybody went home but afterward when i spoke to the ECCs of the 2 ENGs they were adamant they were right as that is what ECC school was teaching ... as i said previous none of my reports resulted in a  modification of the no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper policy  ...... this Third Alarm occurred mid 2000s while i was ADC in DV*14 & was filmed on a commercial Buff video including the CPT in the window waiting for the Line as the Fire was taking off.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 28, 2018, 11:43:27 PM
Crazy
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: nfd2004 on August 29, 2018, 08:24:29 AM
How many lines can an engine usually handle
Thats a good question...it is really not about what an ENG can handle but what the FDNY mandates today...the FDNY now teaches no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper.....however this is constantly questioned by those in the street...todays Pumpers are much more capable than those Pumpers of old which i have seen with 5 lines off a Pumper (some that had the 5th line off the tip of the old pre piped Deck Guns)....one of the problems (or maybe the biggest close call)  i had when i was still working after  this "edict" of no more than 2 lines stretched off a Pumper came down was at a Fire with one of my CPT's almost trapped....the question then & still today ..." how many of the 1st two  lines are actually flowing water at the time a 3rd might be stretched ?."...not to beleauger the issue but i had submitted reports to get the "written in stone " edict amended (to no avail) but as a quick example of the one most serious situation i had...a Fire in a mattress store on the ground floor of a 3 sty frame with apts above....as per FDNY protocol for 2 1/2 in a commercial occupancy the 1st Line was a 2 1/2 in the store on the 1st fl  & the 2nd Line a 2 1/2 into the basement sales area of the store....all visible Fire was knocked down in both the original store & it's basement sales area (as well as the store in exp 2)....however hidden Fire had extended via pipe chases & or balloon framing wall spaces to the cockloft of the original bldg & exposure 2...as the 2nd floor ceiling was pulled Fire was erupting into the 2nd fl with Members above on the 3rd fl & Roof  i ordered a standby ENG to get another line to the 2nd fl (multi apts above both stores with oddball entrance stairways none facing exp 1...long story short their  Officer went to the 2nd fl where they were going to operate & they went to the nearest Pumper who told them he already had 2 lines off (actually neither was flowing water as  AVFKD in the store & basement had been knocked down) so they go to the next Pumper who attempts to refuse them also as he says he has 2 lines off .... at the same time their Officer who went to the 2nd fl now becomes forced to the front window as the room is taking off ...(he was looking for a FF who had been seen from the street pulling a ceiling originally when this went South) their ECC (a very Senior FF) seeing they did not get a line from the nearest Pumper runs to the 2nd Pumper & tells the ECC we are taking a line & you will supply it...i did not understand what the delay was at the time but i wanted a Line so i had an ENG who was in exp 4 2nd fl (now knocked down) bring their 1 3/4 out & up a portable into the window where the CPT was & they knocked down the Fire ....everybody went home but afterward when i spoke to the ECCs of the 2 ENGs they were adamant they were right as that is what ECC school was teaching ... as i said previous none of my reports resulted in a  modification of the no more than 2 lines off 1 Pumper policy  ...... this Third Alarm occurred mid 2000s while i was ADC in DV*14 & was filmed on a commercial Buff video including the CPT in the window waiting for the Line as the Fire was taking off.

 Chief thank you for this story. These are the kind of stories that taught "me" back in my younger firefighter/buffing days.

 I can't speak for the FDNY. But I "can" speak for guys that I know in other fire departments. This is the kind of thing that so many guys learned from without opening a book. They in turn, many of whom got promoted, passed that information onto other members of the department. The end result I believe, was a few more civilian lives saved, and I'm sure Firefighters lives too were saved when it was all put together.

 As a firefighter/buff from years back, I personally am very THANKFUL for all that I was able to learn and pass onto the guys from hundreds of stories just like this.

 
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: mac8146 on August 29, 2018, 09:03:21 AM
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ffís and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: fdhistorian on August 29, 2018, 10:50:04 AM
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ffís and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: turk132 on August 29, 2018, 10:58:34 AM
Chief I have to agree with you that the 2 line per pumper rule should be addressed, all engines today except the squads are 2,000 gpm pumps, more than capable of pumping 3 or more hand lines. A decision was made to purchase the additional capacity in pumps after 9/11 yet the books and training have not been updated. Also today most engines are riding with 4 ffís and to have to stretch lines with less men from further away will also add to a delay in getting lines when needed.
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?


That is the issue... how many lines will be affected IF....... going back, don't remember when, but 1 line 1 engine was talked about meaning 2nd line would come off another engine having a water supply.

Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on August 29, 2018, 07:32:10 PM
The issue is not pump capacity but rather reliability and safety.  In the event of mechanical problems with the pumper, or loss of water supply, how many lines will be affected?
That's always a risk but that failure rate is so minuscule it's hardly worth considering.  If they are going to keep following these rules then why are they bothering spending the extra money to get 2000 GPM engines?

Fire departments all across the United States both paid and volunteer depend on a single-engine company in many cases to be the sole piece of equipment attacking a fire.  Many times there is even a 2nd piece of apparatus on the scene until quite a while after the initial attack and they don't seem to have any major issues.

I can't remember the last time I read an article about firefighters being killed or injured because of the failure of an engine company or loss of water supply except if it was caused by a compromise in the lines they were actually using.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: scoobyd on August 29, 2018, 08:02:01 PM
Two points to consider- 

  1. Every line started after the 1st operating line usually requires the ECC to increase the pump pressure.  If the pump pressure is increased while lines are operating, each of those lines needs to be "gated-down" manually back to the correct pressure, while at the same time increasing pump pressure for each additional line.  But thats academic when shit is hitting the fan.

 2.  A  2 1/2"  is not mandated for a commercial occupancy in a MD.  The only mention of that in the books is to consider it for "large volume fires" in OLT stores.  A very senior and well respected BC in the 35 has been an advocate over the years for using discretion with which line size is used in commercial occupancy fires.  His position IIRC is to go with 1 3/4" whenever possible- faster, more maneuverable and much less taxing on the troops.  I think it is a point very worthy of consideration by an engine officer.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: manhattan on August 29, 2018, 11:01:36 PM
OK, I'm baffled again (nothing new for me): what are "OLT stores" and "IIRC"?

Thanks. ??? :-[
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 69 METS on August 29, 2018, 11:21:01 PM
Two points to consider- 

  1. Every line started after the 1st operating line usually requires the ECC to increase the pump pressure.  If the pump pressure is increased while lines are operating, each of those lines needs to be "gated-down" manually back to the correct pressure, while at the same time increasing pump pressure for each additional line.  But thats academic when shit is hitting the fan.

 2.  A  2 1/2"  is not mandated for a commercial occupancy in a MD.  The only mention of that in the books is to consider it for "large volume fires" in OLT stores.  A very senior and well respected BC in the 35 has been an advocate over the years for using discretion with which line size is used in commercial occupancy fires.  His position IIRC is to go with 1 3/4" whenever possible- faster, more maneuverable and much less taxing on the troops.  I think it is a point very worthy of consideration by an engine officer.


Maneuverability vs. GPM's. I've been at jobs in commercial buildings where the engine company was operating a properly supplied 2 1/2" attack line with the nozzle wide open and they were overrun by fire.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 12:19:25 AM
So all the 1 3/4 have a 2 1/2 at the end if there a long stretch.  And the 1 3/4 is not connected to the 2 1/2 on the truck? And does one of the hoses have a y on IT?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 12:23:52 AM
Did look at some previous posts and got some answers itís just hard to understand it if you donít actually see it sometimes does anybody have a picture of the 2 1/2 with the gateway going to the inch and three-quarter thanks
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: nfd2004 on August 30, 2018, 08:42:48 AM
So all the 1 3/4 have a 2 1/2 at the end if there a long stretch.  And the 1 3/4 is not connected to the 2 1/2 on the truck? And does one of the hoses have a y on IT?

 I don't know for sure but if I remember, it was NOT a gated "Y" that was used. Simply a reducer of 2 1/2" to 1 3/4" (1 1/2").

 The initial stretch would be 3 (?) lengths, maybe 6 lengths (?). Then the 2 1/2" hose would start to come out. The FDNY guys would certainly know more about it than I do.

 That way, if things started to go sour on the fire ground, the 2 1/2 hose had already been started out and tied into the discharge of the rig. Of course it also cut down on friction loss, using that 2 1/2 hose once that number of lengths were stretched.

 I remember when I saw that at a job, I thought "what a great idea". I think I had even taken a picture of it during my buffing days with that reducer in the street tying those two different hose sizes together.

 So for me, being on the job back then, we talked it over among the boss and the guys, and I think today it is still in use. Not only where I was a firefighter, but word spread to other departments as well.

 Bear in mind, that is "nothing official", but only as I somewhat remember it as a buff. 

 There is NO DOUBT in my mind that "anybody" who wants to learn fire dept tactics and procedures, the FDNY is the Place. From Brush fires to high rise fires and everything else in between. They have been there and done that. Plus of course Ship fires, plane crashes, water rescue, high angle rope rescue, etc and etc. "The place has it all".
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
Ok a reducer not a y I was thinking that because I do see that a lot on other Dept.  The 3 inch or 3 1/2 could do that though. I donít know if fdny uses that concept on longer stretchís.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: turk132 on August 30, 2018, 12:40:53 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ku89crefl/12004766_747601405351420_7645765722897874014_n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ku89crefl/)

 2 beds of  6 lengths of 1 3/4" hose, reducer, 10 lengths of 2 1/2' (6/10)
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: nfd2004 on August 30, 2018, 02:22:10 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ku89crefl/12004766_747601405351420_7645765722897874014_n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ku89crefl/)

 2 beds of  6 lengths of 1 3/4" hose, reducer, 10 lengths of 2 1/2' (6/10)

 Thank you "turk" for providing that photo of Engine 48's hose bed and answering our question.

 For the members who may not be aware, "turk132" was the Engine Company Chaffer (ECC) of Engine 48 during a time when "48" was one of, or perhaps "the busiest Engine Co within the FDNY - in both runs and structural work".
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on August 30, 2018, 03:10:48 PM
(https://s8.postimg.cc/ku89crefl/12004766_747601405351420_7645765722897874014_n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ku89crefl/)

 2 beds of  6 lengths of 1 3/4" hose, reducer, 10 lengths of 2 1/2' (6/10)
In the FDNY it is mandated that 6 lengths of 1 3/4 " is the maximum number of lengths that should ever be in a stretch or there will be serious friction loss problems... if the stretch requires more than 6 lengths that is why it would then be filled out with 2 1/2 " as set up in the Bed pictured....any ENG or SQ that i was assigned to or later had in my BN i always had the amount of 3 1/2 " increased from the standard load of 10 lengths to at least 14 or 15 for supply purposes....it can either be packed slightly hanging off the back or the front folds can turned up.....every ENG has extra lengths in the FH (or you can requisition all you want).....better to have extra with you not back in Qtrs.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 03:27:22 PM
Thx
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: HCO on August 30, 2018, 05:36:49 PM
Some further background of turk132:  After his promotion to lieutenant. and assignment to a few units, he became the "second uniformed guy" at the Mand Library and worked there prior to his retirement.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: turk132 on August 30, 2018, 06:44:30 PM
Some further background of turk132:  After his promotion to lieutenant. and assignment to a few units, he became the "second uniformed guy" at the Mand Library and worked there prior to his retirement.

Great place to work!
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 09:06:31 PM
Is the 3 inch supply ever used with a reducer? Or a gated y
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: lucky on August 30, 2018, 10:16:26 PM
The supply line is 3 1/2" hose with 3" butts. I think I remember hearing that the boats had 3 1/2" hose with 3 1/2" butts. I never remember reducing a large diameter line down as that would restrict the advantage of high water capacity and low friction loss.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on August 30, 2018, 10:49:54 PM
NIce is the 3 1/2 used by the engine companies to hook up to the building for water supply?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: mac8146 on August 30, 2018, 11:46:52 PM
The 3 1/2 is used to supply large caliber streams such as tower ladders, ladder pipes and sometimes portable Akron New Yorker, it is also used for relay and inline pumping plus supplying standpipes and sprinkler systems. Never saw a gated wye used on end of line during operation. Have seen 3 1/2 used to fill out an unusually long stretch into subway emergency exit during train car fire deep underground so a lot of improvisation to get line down was used. 3 1/2 reduced into 2 1/2 and lastly down to 1 3/4.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: grumpy grizzly on August 31, 2018, 05:07:19 PM
This is Boston Engine 4's 1970 1250GPM Hahn at a multiple alarm job in 1979 in the North End. Chances are they were first or second due. Their second piece was a 1500GPM 3-stage pump hose wagon. They may also have been hooked up to the high-pressure system.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/plekdnxg1/BFD_E-4_Hahn_Y.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/plekdnxg1/)
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on September 01, 2018, 04:05:28 PM
I have received the ops book and have been reading thru it hopefully I can answer slot of my own questions. I did read that there are no special engines assigned to the satellite units anymore since they all have 2000gpm pumpers now   
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on September 01, 2018, 05:28:12 PM
I have received the ops book and have been reading thru it hopefully I can answer slot of my own questions. I did read that there are no special engines assigned to the satellite units anymore since they all have 2000gpm pumpers now
Each Satellite does have a associated ENG in the Qtrs the SAT is housed as well as a designated backup ENG in case the original ENG is out.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on September 01, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I mean thereís nobody dedicated engine that has to pump to the satellite because all the engines are 2000gpm is that correct?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on September 01, 2018, 09:17:33 PM
I mean thereís nobody dedicated engine that has to pump to the satellite because all the engines are 2000gpm is that correct?

l would say correct as 20 so yrs ago only the sat engines / pumps were 2000 gpm and now all ( except squads 1000gpm ) are 2000 gpms
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on September 01, 2018, 09:43:24 PM
I was thinking of it and the discussion earlier about having two lines off an engine was max  So if an engine is pumping got a satellite that is feeding 4  or six lines it must be really taxing it unless thereís multiple engines supplying the satellite
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: 68jk09 on September 01, 2018, 10:39:57 PM
^^^ As far as some of the above questions regarding the SAT's .... yes today other than the Associated ENG other 2000 Gal Pumpers are capable of supplying a SAT 
 but the "Associated ENG & the Designated Backup ENG are well versed in the operations of the SAT & it's capabilities" 
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Bulldog on September 02, 2018, 11:30:21 AM
l would say correct as 20 so yrs ago only the sat engines / pumps were 2000 gpm and now all ( except squads 1000gpm ) are 2000 gpms
Does anyone know the reason that squads don't have 2000 GPM pumps?  I know they are slightly larger but not that much difference that it would change the dimensions of the pumphouse.  The way squads run they are just as likely to be required to pump large flows of water especially in areas that they are first do on.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: mac8146 on September 02, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
Squads carry much more in the way of tools and saws so compartments are larger and configuration of hose bed allows for 3 beds not usual 4. Also i assume same goes for pump sizes and that 1,000 gpm pump takes up less space, also total weight could be a factor too.
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: BCR on September 03, 2018, 01:50:30 PM
The 2000 gpm pumps would really only need that kind of capacity if they were supplying satellites or relay pumping. While a squad could perform those tasks, the odds of them doing that are slim to none. It would be more important for the squad to be close to the scene with there extra tools than to be tied down to a satellite or several blocks away relay pumping
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Fireinfo101 on October 13, 2018, 12:49:19 AM
Why did the captain of E165 ask for a squad engine for?
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: Nasibova on October 13, 2018, 05:44:27 AM
Why did the captain of E165 ask for a squad engine for?

 "...Engine 165 got the rescue pumper as requested from E 165's captain for the extra haz-mat equipment they need to carry... "

    http://fdnytrucks.com/files/html/statenisland/e165.htm
Title: Re: Engine 165
Post by: capthale on November 26, 2018, 03:26:08 PM
What is the size of the hose trash line carried on the front bumper?