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Incident Alert => Citywide => Topic started by: Bulldog on June 22, 2014, 07:33:37 PM

Title: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on June 22, 2014, 07:33:37 PM
The video of the houseboat fire posted earlier this morning (http://mashable.com/2014/06/20/drone-san-diego-yacht-fire/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link (http://mashable.com/2014/06/20/drone-san-diego-yacht-fire/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link) shows how useful having a small helicopter-based drone could be for FDNY.  They could provide an overview of the fire scene much quicker than the present system does using NYPD aviation assets.  The Battalion Chiefs who are now dispatched to be the 3rd alarm aviation asset could easily operate one.  It would be quite easy to carry them on a rescue or a squad or any other company FDNY wanted to carry them.  It seems more and more that they would become an extremely valuable asset.

They are easily flown by one person who doesn't require a lot of training.  They use GPS coordinates to maintain their location or return to it in the prices have plummeted greatly.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: VanNest 90 on June 22, 2014, 08:31:51 PM
It's Just a matter of time before they using them
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: tbendick on June 23, 2014, 09:43:00 AM
I think the command tactical unit is researching them.  Not so much for Manhattan due to the hi-rise buildings but Staten Island for brush fires.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on June 23, 2014, 10:41:28 AM
I think the command tactical unit is researching them.  Not so much for Manhattan due to the hi-rise buildings but Staten Island for brush fires.
It actually seems like they would be quite helpful in all the boroughs.  Obviously they would be a big benefit for the brushfires but easily get a view of the rooftop or adjoining structures in all of the other areas.  Granted they may not be very useful for the major high-rises.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: raybrag on June 23, 2014, 03:00:54 PM
You can buy a drone that transmits live video to a tablet or smartphone for less than the price of a length of 1 3/4" hose.  For this price, FDNY could equip every Battalion Chief, rescue, squad, engine and ladder company with one and not bust the budget.  I certainly hope that SOMEBODY is researching them.

See http://www.amazon.com/Parrot-AR-Drone-Elite-Edition-Quadricopter/dp/B00FS7SV1U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403549683&sr=8-1&keywords=ar+drone (http://www.amazon.com/Parrot-AR-Drone-Elite-Edition-Quadricopter/dp/B00FS7SV1U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403549683&sr=8-1&keywords=ar+drone)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: mikeindabronx on June 23, 2014, 06:50:49 PM
Interesting segment "Drones Over America" on 60 Minutes last night
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on June 23, 2014, 10:23:35 PM
Interesting segment "Drones Over America" on 60 Minutes last night
Yes, that was a very interesting story.  Everybody that doubts the usefulness of them should watch it.  With the GPS stability they demonstrated everybody could operate one pretty easily!  Here's a link to the video: http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/drones-over-america-2 (http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/drones-over-america-2)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: STAjo on June 23, 2014, 11:01:47 PM

Last Time we had this discussion, ( i believe there is a Previous Thread ...), I wound-up sending then-Commissioner Cassano an e-mail posing the Question.
Needless to say ... I Never Got a Reply  ::)    ;)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: CFDMarshal on June 24, 2014, 12:03:17 PM
Sal Cassano is now starting a company to provide drones to the FDNY! You gave him the idea Stajo! Just Kidding!!!!
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: mack on June 24, 2014, 02:04:51 PM
HYPOTHETICAL -  Staten Island ferry crash October 2016:

E 155, 153, 152, 156 L 77, 78, 79, R 5, Sq 1 Bn 21, 22, D 8 dispatched for reported ferry crash at SI terminal (plus a million other units):


- Marine 9 launches drone 1 enroute
- Bn 21 launches drone 2 on arrival
- R 5 launches drone 3 on arrival
- D 8 launches drone 4 on arrival
- NYPD ESU launches drone 5 on arrival
- Dept of Marine and Aviation supervisor launches drone 6
- USCG launches drones 7 and 8 enroute
- NY State Naval Militia patrol boat launches drone 9
- Media launches drones 10-30
- Tugboats launch drones 31-35
- Universities and schools launch drones 36-46
- Willy D buffing launches drone 47

Everyone will have a drone.  You can buy your own drone on eBay for $29 today.  A major problem is going to be airspace control of drones at emergencies and major fires.  There are no current FAA regulations and when established, they will be very difficult to enforce. 

Several passenger jets have had near-misses with drones around airports.  They are not seen on radar.   There is no capability to track operators.  Some pilots have reported close-flying drones at higher altitudes.

Drones are going to proliferate rapidly in the next few years in many industries - to include firefighting (command and contro observation, operations, search, training).  How they are going to be safely controlled and managed will be a challenge.

Drone at Harlem building collapse:
http://www.firefighternation.com/videos/drone-view-harlem-collapse-aftermath (http://www.firefighternation.com/videos/drone-view-harlem-collapse-aftermath)

(http://s17.postimg.cc/6dlfg3kkr/th_CA03_UW3_E.jpg) (http://postimg.cc/image/6dlfg3kkr/)

Near misses:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/23/close-encounters-with-small-drones-on-rise/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/06/23/close-encounters-with-small-drones-on-rise/)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: guitarman314 on June 24, 2014, 06:28:48 PM
There was something on the news today regarding a ruling to keep drones more than 5 miles away from airports and prohibiting their operation over large crowds of people.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: BCR on June 24, 2014, 07:24:09 PM
I heard something similar tonight as well, only caught the tail end but I thought they said they are requesting any hobbiest operating drones within a 5 mile range of an airport are requested to call air traffic control and notify them of where there flying
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: STAjo on June 24, 2014, 09:28:55 PM
Sal Cassano is now starting a company to provide drones to the FDNY! You gave him the idea Stajo! Just Kidding!!!!

TY, Rev. ! [ i wouldn't be the least bit Surprised...  ::) ]   ;)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: manhattan on June 24, 2014, 09:35:05 PM
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/cb19a2af87774d489126e2dc43ba2ccd/ND--Drone-Demo (http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/cb19a2af87774d489126e2dc43ba2ccd/ND--Drone-Demo)

Shape of things to come: Demonstration touts drone versatility, from crime scenes to crops
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: mikeindabronx on June 29, 2014, 08:10:06 AM
http://magicvalley.com/news/local/are-drones-the-future-of-firefighting/article_1615f7de-ff4b-11e3-988e-001a4bcf887a.html (http://magicvalley.com/news/local/are-drones-the-future-of-firefighting/article_1615f7de-ff4b-11e3-988e-001a4bcf887a.html)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: mack on June 29, 2014, 10:08:37 AM
No matter what regulations and laws are passed, it is not possible to enforce much at present.   You can't see them on existing radar and you can't track owners or operators.  They have not been able to track offending drone owners responsible for any of the near misses to date.  That will change, but at present,  small cheap drones are going to start showing up anywhere.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on June 29, 2014, 12:05:21 PM
No matter what regulations and laws are passed, it is not possible to enforce much at present.   You can't see them on existing radar and you can't track owners or operators.  They have not been able to track offending drone owners responsible for any of the near misses to date.  That will change, but at present,  small cheap drones are going to start showing up anywhere.
I really don't understand the point of your post.  I definitely agree with what you said but I'm not sure how that applies to FDNY using drones at fire scenes.  Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: mikeindabronx on June 29, 2014, 12:39:46 PM
No matter what regulations and laws are passed, it is not possible to enforce much at present.   You can't see them on existing radar and you can't track owners or operators.  They have not been able to track offending drone owners responsible for any of the near misses to date.  That will change, but at present,  small cheap drones are going to start showing up anywhere.
I really don't understand the point of your post.  I definitely agree with what you said but I'm not sure how that applies to FDNY using drones at fire scenes.  Am I missing something?


I don't think your missing anything, but just because the heading includes FDNY I don't think we should preclude

info. on how drones are being used under other firefighting conditions or for drones in general.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: raybrag on June 29, 2014, 12:46:40 PM
At some point, I expect the FAA to require that every drone sold in the US be equipped with a transponder, and when you buy one, you'll have to register with some agency or other to be allowed to make the purchase.  Considering the potential dangers that Mack has already outlined, I don't think this is an unreasonable requirement . . . but if nothing else, it will add weight and expense to every drone.  None of that will preclude agencies like NYPD and FDNY from getting a bunch of them . . . if they choose to.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: tbendick on June 29, 2014, 06:07:08 PM
I think MACKs point about drones is that BUFFs will start using them soon.  What ever FDNY might do with a Drone in the future would be very regulated but a buff with a small unit is another story.

Raybrag, I wonder if a FAA would every have people register and if it would be enforced.  I do communications on the side and one thing I always laugh about is GMRS/FRS radios.  The stores sell GMRS radios but you are required to have a license to use them. Not many people go out and get the license and its a joke. 
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: raybrag on June 29, 2014, 06:55:48 PM
Tom:

When you buy a car (at least from a dealer), they record who you are, where you say you live, etc.  Buy a gun . . . same deal.  Our Big Brother government would not see a problem in registering drones . . . and with the transponder, they could track which one it is then find the guy it's registered to.  Not totally unlike what they can do today with cell phones.  Of course, the problem arises when some guy in Keokuk, Iowa sells his drone on eBay to a guy in Weehawken, who then uses it to buff FDNY.  Then the FAA goes after the guy in Keokuk when the drone takes out one of the FDNY's or NYPD's flying over an incident in Brooklyn.   I think the situation will be more akin to what I've described than what you find with radios.  Nobody requires the store that sells you a radio to check for your license before they sell the thing to you, nor do they require the store to get your name, address and great-grandfather's naturalization number before they give it to you.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: auxlteng225 on June 29, 2014, 07:42:05 PM
Regarding transponders in drones. To qualify myself on the subject I am a licensed private pilot and as such did have a transponder in the Piper PA28 that I formally owned. With a transponder, as you come in to an areas air space you had to contact the Air traffic controller for that area and he in turn would give you a setting for YOUR transponder and tell you to squawk it. That meant, of course that after dialing in the requested setting, to hit the transmit button. That would then in turn give a blip on his radar screen showing him where you were in compass direction from him. As you can see. with a drone, and no pilot on board there is no way that the transponder is going to work. Licensing a person to possess a transponder and issuing him a radio to contact local airport also seems highly impractical based on how Air Traffic Controllers are now so heavily over loaded with work at major airports.  Also the transponder ID signal could not be personalized to one individual for tracking purposes. 
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: raybrag on June 29, 2014, 08:44:15 PM
Each aircraft transponder is automatically set to broadcast the aircraft's id, flight level, airspeed and other information, and it does this at all times.  When a controller asks you to squawk a particular code and then "ident", your blip on his screen gets markedly brighter and displays the code he asked you to squawk . . . but your info is there all the time.  When you squawk code 77 (aircraft emergency), 76 (lost comm) or 75 (hijack), your blip automatically gets brighter than all others on the controller's screen.  Your point about controller workload is valid . . . but if the FAA were to get serious about controlling drones, they could simply designate different frequencies for the drones to report on. 

But perhaps I misled you by using the word transponder in the same paragraph as FAA.  Every cell phone has a transponder in it, too . . . which communicates with the carrier and identifies at least which cell tower it is using at a given moment.  Some indicate precisely where they are if they are GPS enabled.  So  it would be easily possible to develop a system to identify each drone in the air  . . . where it was and who owned it.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: scoobyd on June 29, 2014, 09:45:32 PM
 I made a comment here the other day about whether "buckshot or birdshot" was more useful for drones- lighthearted jest of course.  Don't know if it was deleted or I didn't hit the right button.
  Point being, I am very weary of drones, E-Z Pass senors, redlight cameras, speed cameras, etc.  Seems like the gov't has a form of surveillance everywhere.  I am not a fan of the capabilities I see expanding all the time.  The crazy sci-fi future of yesterday doesn't seem so crazy today.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: guitarman314 on June 29, 2014, 09:51:47 PM
I'm more worried about drones being in the wrong hands than the government.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on June 29, 2014, 09:55:01 PM
Ray, while I certainly agree with you that the technology described it highly workable I don't believe the FAA, FCC or any other agency has the money nor time to develop such a system.  They are lucky to be able to support and keep what they have working.  In addition the buyers of drones would not put up with a huge increase in costs for this type of system.  Because their normal altitude is so low normal air traffic control radars and systems would not be able to see them in many locations.  The only existing systems we have that would probably be able to see the most the time would be cell phone networks and I'm not quite sure how they could be used to track them without major modifications.
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: BCR on June 29, 2014, 11:30:59 PM
Just wait untill the first politician realizes that money can be made by making users pay a regestration fee and declaring what they have. They will make it a disaster. We are seeing it in CT right now with "assult weapons" they make everyone register there guns and high capacity mags. However they never new to begin with how many were out there and have no realistic way of enforcing it. Without going into a gun debate my point is that unfortunately to keep them out of the wrong hands or force people to be responsible it is just to late, to many are out there already and they have no realistic way of enforcing it, just like criminals do not register there weapons. My worry is the wrong person using a drone to cause destruction, it might be intentional or it might be unintentional. Think of a buff flying to close to a rope rescue or knocking someone off a ladder. I think where they should start is putting requirements on how big the drone can be / how much weight they can carry. In all seriousness in ten fifteen years could you not see drones delivering pizza ?? It isn't out of the question if the technology becomes affordable enough
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: 68jk09 on June 30, 2014, 12:34:16 AM
EXAMPLE OF A DRONE VIDEO SHOWING REBUILDING EFFORTS AT THE ROCKAWAY POINT YACHT CLUB SINCE HURRICANE SANDY.....   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUhx8Elq-fA&feature=em-upload_owner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUhx8Elq-fA&feature=em-upload_owner)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: manhattan on June 30, 2014, 08:30:41 AM
FAA regulations bar drones near airports
http://gsnmagazine.com/node/41663?c=airport_aviation_security (http://gsnmagazine.com/node/41663?c=airport_aviation_security)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: raybrag on June 30, 2014, 09:58:20 AM
Yes, and everyone reads those regulations and obeys them. ::)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: 68jk09 on July 07, 2014, 01:43:05 PM
DRONE FLYS INTO A FIREWORKS DISPLAY......   Fireworks filmed with a drone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9KZ3jgbbmI#ws)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: manhattan on July 07, 2014, 09:55:32 PM
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-preparing-phased-integration-uas-over-five-years (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-preparing-phased-integration-uas-over-five-years)

FAA Preparing Phased Integration Of UAS Over Five Years
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2014, 10:02:18 PM
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-preparing-phased-integration-uas-over-five-years (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/faa-preparing-phased-integration-uas-over-five-years)

FAA Preparing Phased Integration Of UAS Over Five Years
Just like every other thing done by the government is going to be very late.  The Congressional mandate was for this to be in place by September 15, 2015!
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: STAjo on July 07, 2014, 11:57:36 PM
EXAMPLE OF A DRONE VIDEO SHOWING REBUILDING EFFORTS AT THE ROCKAWAY POINT YACHT CLUB SINCE HURRICANE SANDY.....   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUhx8Elq-fA&feature=em-upload_owner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUhx8Elq-fA&feature=em-upload_owner)

Fantastic ! How Great would Something Like That be at a Fire !?!   8)
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: manhattan on July 16, 2014, 10:34:15 PM
http://i-hls.com/2014/07/dutch-fire-department-announces-purchase-altura-uav/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=dutch-fire-department-announces-purchase-altura-uav&utm_source=iHLS&utm_medium=Guy&utm_campaign=RSS (http://i-hls.com/2014/07/dutch-fire-department-announces-purchase-altura-uav/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=dutch-fire-department-announces-purchase-altura-uav&utm_source=iHLS&utm_medium=Guy&utm_campaign=RSS)

Dutch fire department announces purchase of Altura UAV
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: 68jk09 on February 27, 2017, 05:44:59 AM
AND....     http://nypost.com/2017/02/26/drone-smashes-through-womans-apartment-window/
Title: Re: Usefulness of Drones for FDNY
Post by: 68jk09 on January 19, 2018, 07:58:10 PM
DRONE USED FOR WATER RESCUE....    http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2018/01/18/drone-saves-australian-teen-swimmers-in-worlds-1st-rescue-mission-with-unmanned-aircraft.html