FDNY-why no pre-piped ladders

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kmg365

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Feb 27, 2012
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I have watched hundreds of FDNY videos on YOUTUBE. Thanks to the videographers! It seems there are multiple instances where a pre-piped aerial could have gone to work with great effect. I have even seen FDNY videos where they move the aerial to bring in a tower ladder. Why does FDNY not have, or use, pre-piped aerials? Wouldn't it be  easier? Thanks!
 
kmg365: You will find that very few big city fire departments operate aerial ladders with pre-piped waterways.  The primary reason for the aerial ladder is rescue and access not to deliver an elevated master stream.  On TDAs a pre-piped waterway adds about 24 inches to the length of the truck and damaging the waterway is a constant consideration when operating the aerial.  I don't believe any of FDNY's TDAs or rear mounts have pre-piped waterways and none of Philadelphia's TDAs have them.  I think only one of Chicago's rear mounts has one, Aerial Tower 1, which is a rear mount ladder not a tower.  Pre-piped waterways add to the cost of the vehicle too.
 
All the rear mounts and tillers have a detachable ladder pipe that can be mounted and put in use of required, pre piped water ways add considerable bulk and weight to the ladders making roof and window access more difficult, I think at one point some of the tillers had pre piped water ways that went only on the bed section, think they were all gone by the early to mid 90's
 
In the FDNY all pre piped waterways  on Tiller Rigs were only attached to the Bed Section of the earlier Tiller Rigs & started as a shortened length of 3 1/2" soft jacketed hose strapped to the bed section only ...we had one on our '63 Seagrave Tiller when i first came OTJ in '68 & was assigned to 108 ....the next Rig we got was a '69 ALF Tiller that had a pre piped metal waterway on the bed section....there were less Tower Ladders & more vacant's then & we did use it on many occasions....it was designed to be supplied into a fitting attached to the base of the Aerial by a  3 1/2 but we had a setup w/2 lengths of 2 1/2 on a rack underneath the base of the Aerial coming off Female first & had an increaser in the base of the pipe ... usually there was an ENG w/in 2 lengths so one FF could drag the 2 1/2  to the Pumper & it flowed enough water to knock down Fire especially on the exterior of a frame bldg w/asphalt (gasoline) shingles...i had even used it at a factory one time using the tip of the Aerial to raise up the partially opened steel roll down & the stream went right inside i have also more than once punched right thru a wooden garage door style door (but larger) on a factory & the nozzle was right in line for a quick knockdown .....of course generally side to side movement was by rotating the turntable & moving the nozzle up & down could be either by lowering or raising the Aerial or by using a crank attached to the base of the Aerial controlling up & down motion of just the nozzle by a steel cable.....the pre piped waterways on the Bed section  were never on a Rearmount & were no longer installed in FDNY Tiller Aerials or (TDA's) by ? i did not keep track after i went to R*2 in '77......one other possible use of the pre pipe W/the 2 1/2 " setup was that lets say FFs & or Civilians were on the Aerial & Fire blew out of a window below the Aerial & the Nozzle which unless lowered by the hand crank was always pointing in line w/the Aerial so the stream would hit the bldg below the the aerial (in between windows/floors) creating somewhat of a water curtain to protect those on the Aerial w/out pushing Fire into the bldg. .. i think there may have been some info relating to the Bed Ladder Pipe  published in a WNYF or other printed material concerning it...maybe someone can dig it up & post it ?...even though it is "water under the bridge ...so to speak " it is good History....Also on the early Tower Ladder scene early '70s with a totally different  extending /retracting (of the water loaded boom waterway )  pre piped waterway some TL Company's (124 in particular) originally had placed a gate in the top end of the pipe behind the tip & in a few instances had made some rescues of Civilians by knocking down Fire then jumping into the room & pulling Civilians  out.....the Job prohibited  the use of the gate  on the TL pipe because  the waterway that extended w/the Tower Ladder boom had packing in the joints that could not stand the pressure once the gate was closed & the boom had to be retracted blowing the seals in the joints since the water in the pipe could not be compressed.
 
  The last aerial I saw with a 3-1/2" under-bed-ladder pipe was H&L34's Seagrave in the early 90's. In the early 1960's there were some ladder co's. with 2 ladderpipes (1 portable & 1 under bed ladder), here are 2 charts from 1959 and 1962 WNYF magazines showing how many ladder trucks were equipped with 1 and 2 ladderpipes: 
 


 
Tom do you have the yr and issue of the two please. I have all the wnyf's on disc.
 
The only Aerial Ladder I ever remember seeing operating a master stream into a fire was way back in the 1970s. It was a fourth or fifth alarm in a factory building on Waverly Place in Brooklyn and I believe it was Ladder 108 that was operating it.

I think once those tower ladders started to come in, they seemed to be what was used for that purpose. They could move from window to window, and from floor to floor knocking down some heavy fire from the exterior. It allowed the guys in the bucket to actually see directly what they were hitting as well.

Also as pointed out earlier, it would seem to me that the primary purpose for the aerial is rescue. Once an aerial ladder is set up and using a master stream, that ladder can no longer be used if rescue is needed. 
 
  The first ladder trucks with ladderpipes back in the late 1940's were L45, an 85ft. 1940 Ahrens-Fox and L48, an 85ft. 1938 FWD ;) The old water towers were put out of service around 1957 after eleven 1956 ALF's with ladderpipes were put into service.
 
I should have prefaced my post above regarding piped waterways .....i did leave 108 to go to R*2 in mid '77 & did not pay much attention after that as to who did or did not have a fixed pipe on their Tiller (or TDA) Aerial  after that or when the Job stopped ordering them (the fixed pipes) after that  ...also as far as my earlier post talking about using the fixed Bed Ladder Pipe  ..i am not a proponent of outside streams but rather would want an aggressive interior handline attack but as stated "back when"  sometimes w/vacant's ( or over & over same vacant's reduced to a giant rubbish pile) it did serve a purpose  & kept FFs uninjured & fresh for the Big One.
 
Photo credit to Steve Spak
30 truck flowing water with there detachable ladder pipe
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/66-55-1354c.jpg
 
http://www.stevespak.com/fires/manhattan/66-55-1354.html

There are a few more photos showing it in operation at a 5th alarm
 
For reference to the "pre-piped" bed section only, here is a few photos of New Haven Truck 4 operating with the bed section, they also carry a detachable that can be mounted to the tip for more reach
http://www.firescenes.net/?tag=seagrave-aerial-working-at-fire-scene
 
Here are photos of the famous Bronx "Ice House Fire" in the early 1960's. You can see 2nd due L29's 1960 ALF operating 2 ladderpipes on the right and Ladder 30's 1959 Mack/Maxim on exp. #2 with 2 ladderpipes in use. 

 
Photo from exp.#1 shows 1st due L17 operating with their fixed bed ladderpipe and L29 in front of them with 2 ladderpipes.

 
  Scene shows 2nd due E83, a 2pc. engine co. They were able to get 2 master streams from their 1959 Mack C-95 1000gpm pumper and 1947 ALF 750gpm pumper/wagon. 

 
Once the tower ladders came on the scene the expense of installing pre-piped bed ladder pipes could then be spent on other items. The tower ladders were also 100 percent more efficient in directing the stream where it could do the most good. Retaining the clamp on ladder pipe and the length of 3 or 3-1/2 hose with the pipe being operated by lines from the ground was kept and does occasionally get put to use right up to this day. The pre-piped bed ladder pipe, as has been correctly mentioned on this discussion was an attempt to get a replacement for the OLD water towers which had out lived there usefulness as a single purpose piece of apparatus. 
 
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