Would Ladder Tenders Work in nyc

A

anesti

Joined
Jul 22, 2008
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I always see a topic on the state of the shortage of spares and rigs breaking down.Would be a wise move if the fdny atleast ran a pilot program and pick a few of the busier ladders companys to see if the normal rigs hold up longer than they do now?
 
You'd have to consider whether or not most truck companies can fit another large sized apparatus in their quarters; most CPC and SSL units are already parked outside the house.
 
I hate to admit it, But, "What is a Ladder Tender" ? I know the second pieces that many Ladder Cos of FDNY have such as CPC and SSL trucks. Not a clue on a "Ladder Tender". Any Help ???
 
im thinking it is a truck company with a water supply, a normal tender is a tanker.
 
a tender is a second piece to the ladder i know phoneix and another bigger dept in texas ues it i forget which. all it is a smaller rig with no ladder just truck equipment so you can use it to respond to medicals,water leaks etc so you dont have to have the normal rig respond.
 
Ladder tenders would not work. We are too busy and would waste alot of time getting back to quarters to pick up the main piece if we were out on a water leak or stuck elevator, instead of responding from the last run to the next run.  
 
The Ladder Tender is basically a second piece for a ladder company that carry's all of the auxiliary equipment that is normally carried in compartments.  The premise is that it reduces the weight and thus wear and tear on the ladder truck.  The idea may or may not make sense depending on where you are and how you operate but it definitely means another piece of apparatus to purchase and maintain.  Another possible use that some departments follow is to just dispatch the tender to some calls where just in the equipment will be needed (many departments carry extraction tools on truck companies) thus reducing the number of calls a ladder trucks respond to.  Of course for normal fire calls both pieces respond.
 
As I understand it, the Ladder Tender would be in the same quarters with a regular Ladder Truck. It doesn"t have a pump or Aerial or Tower on it. But it carrys all the equipment, minus the large ladder. I would guess that is similiar to what used to be called "Quads". That carried everything including ground ladders, but no stick or tower. If I remember correctly FDNY did have a few of these way back maybe in the early 1960s. Most "Quads" at the time were in Staten Island and Queens.
  I know during the last budget crisis for FDNY in the 1970s there was talk of doing away with seperate Engine and Ladder Companies in a firehouse and using a "Quint" instead. There was talk of doing this to about ten companies. It didn"t go over well and the plan was dropped.
  Getting back to Ladder Tender, it is the same as a ladder truck except for the ladder. And it is stationed with the main Ladder truck as a second piece. Correct ??????
 
Ladder Tenders do not work in most instances and it is just plain foolish to have staffing for 1 heavy apparatus & trying to operate 2
 
Phoenix is the most frequently cited department that uses ladder tenders.  Their department's way of doing business is markedly different than most.  For example, ladder companies are routinely called on EMS calls; they are responsible for extrications, etc., etc. Here's a link to their SOP for ladder tenders:

http://phoenix.gov/fire/20510.pdf

The apparatus Phoenix uses looks more like a small rescue than anything else.  Here's one:

PFDLT41-11-93.png

 
Due to budget cuts, smaller departments like "Jersey City FD" or "North Hudson Fire Regional" in NJ. The lack of money forces, the Fire Dept. to make changes. One is the biggest amount of repair to it fleet of apparatus. In the case right now, due to the lack of spare ladders, a ladder tender or "Plumers Truck" would be put into service. This the tranfer all the members of a truck company O/S to another company except for 2 firefighters. If it come down to much man power 2 man will man the ladder tender. In the case of no ladder tender, they stretch the 1st due responds area out. In the engine company's state they transfer the members over to another company only riding 3 firefighters, and make it 6 firefighters, a officer, and a driver, all together 8 firefighters which makes the "Engine" become a "Squad". The smaller department are starting to use the FDNY's command and operations. I have been a firefighter for only 1 year, and my father has been a firefighter for 26 years, and is now a Ex-Chief. I have seen what happens to these smaller departments. They try to become someone their not. We had Jersey Fire Training along with North Hudson Fire Training, and have found out the their attitudes towards use s***, they hate volly's. When we change from JCFD and NHFR to FDNY training we found they give 2 sh*t's about what we learn and make sure we learn it. We know and laugh when we hear them try to be New York. Are relationship with Rescue's 1 & 4, Squad's 18, & 252, Engine's 1, 5, 34, & 59, Ladder's 21, 24, 30, & 154 are better then we ever had with JC or North Hudson. 
 
Ladder Tenders are a dumb concept, if u ask me ! "Let's try to save the wear & tear on the rigs"- HUH ?? That is what they are for !!! To WORK !! When they break, Fix them ! When they get old- retire them ! Don't try to buy something to prevent them from doing their job !!

Eng1Aux, U'r saying JCFD & NHRFR are small depts ?? They are both 1st class if u ask me !!! How did a post on ladder tenders get turned into a training/hate fest ? lemme guess- u'r like 18-20 years old.................
 
After seeing and reading what a "Ladder Tender" is as posted above, I just can NOT see where that would be efficent to run in a place such as NYC or any other large North East City. I think it appears to be more in line with a Rescue Company than a Ladder Company. As far as cost is concerned, where would a savings be in buying two trucks (Tender "and" a Ladder) to do the same job. An extra $300,000.00 or so to buy that extra rig doesn"t seem to give a savings at all. Yes, there are several city"s that do send the ladders on EMS runs. Generally, if the Engine they share qtrs with is tied up, the Ladder will respond. Ladder Tenders may work in some area"s of this country, but I really don"t see them in use for the FDNY. "Just an old Buffs opinion anyway".
 
Just to echo what nfd said... now you have an additional vehicle to purchase & more maintenance, just plain dumb.
 
Before I read the rest of the replies on the thread, from the title, I just imagined something that resembled the old "city service" type trucks.
 
Agree that it makes no sense to outfit a truck company with 2 rigs. 

It might make sense, tho, to consider what what percent of structural fires result in more than (1) aerial ladder being put into use.  If it turns out to be a low number, the standard 1st alarm response might be altered to include one ladder company and one "old style" squad company... a manpower company equipped with just basic truckie tools.  Same number of FF's on the scene, just one less lumber wagon. 

Should we bring back the "bread trucks"?

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(Photo courtesy of turk132 who previously posted it elsewhere on this board)
 
eng1aux415 said:
Due to budget cuts, smaller departments like "Jersey City FD" or "North Hudson Fire Regional" in NJ. The lack of money forces, the Fire Dept. to make changes. One is the biggest amount of repair to it fleet of apparatus. In the case right now, due to the lack of spare ladders, a ladder tender or "Plumers Truck" would be put into service. This the tranfer all the members of a truck company O/S to another company except for 2 firefighters. If it come down to much man power 2 man will man the ladder tender. In the case of no ladder tender, they stretch the 1st due responds area out. In the engine company's state they transfer the members over to another company only riding 3 firefighters, and make it 6 firefighters, a officer, and a driver, all together 8 firefighters which makes the "Engine" become a "Squad". The smaller department are starting to use the FDNY's command and operations. I have been a firefighter for only 1 year, and my father has been a firefighter for 26 years, and is now a Ex-Chief. I have seen what happens to these smaller departments. They try to become someone their not. We had Jersey Fire Training along with North Hudson Fire Training, and have found out the their attitudes towards use s***, they hate volly's. When we change from JCFD and NHFR to FDNY training we found they give 2 sh*t's about what we learn and make sure we learn it. We know and laugh when we hear them try to be New York. Are relationship with Rescue's 1 & 4, Squad's 18, & 252, Engine's 1, 5, 34, & 59, Ladder's 21, 24, 30, & 154 are better then we ever had with JC or North Hudson.   
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only jersey city has those plumbers trucks as backups,jersey city and nhrfr are a great department and treat buffs with respect and not to mention how much fire duty they see is ridiculous.anyway people seem not to like this idea, but i see the point of increasing your response time to pick up the requalr ladder. anyway eng1aux jersey city had this plumber trucks long before this buget crisis
 
I think the ladder tender idea is economically unfeasable, and not very smart. One truck six guys, you have to deal with wear and tear. You won't be putting the miles on the rigs, but the streets aren't gonna change and they are still gonna tear the s***t outta those rigs, now add another rig for over one hundred thousand dollars, split the crew, what are you saving????? I would think you'd have to split the crew, you wouldn't leave a bs call with the tender and all six guys and leave "the truck" in quarters, when you need "the truck" its gotta get to the fire, not have to go back for it, i've seen that happen in my dept, its goofy,  a tender isn't gonna get you to the roof or allow you to bucket surf.
 
ladder197 said:
I think the ladder tender idea is economically unfeasable, and not very smart. One truck six guys, you have to deal with wear and tear. You won't be putting the miles on the rigs, but the streets aren't gonna change and they are still gonna tear the s***t outta those rigs, now add another rig for over one hundred thousand dollars, split the crew, what are you saving????? I would think you'd have to split the crew, you wouldn't leave a bs call with the tender and all six guys and leave "the truck" in quarters, when you need "the truck" its gotta get to the fire, not have to go back for it, i've seen that happen in my dept, its goofy,  a tender isn't gonna get you to the roof or allow you to bucket surf.
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Not that I'm in favor of Ladder Tenders but most of them are very economical piece of apparatus certainly much less expensive than $100,000 you are talking about.  The ones I've seen (except those in Phoenix) probably could be bought for about $50,000 and considering their main purpose is to carry the auxiliary equipment and we carried on the ladder company they don't require a significant investment in equipment.  A detailed cost analysis may show them to be break even as far as expense goes but when you consider logistics involved (more units responding, more units on the air, etc.) they definitely are a good move.
 
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