Thanks for the rundown and any updates. Interesting to see what Departments responded and units involved.
1/29/2025 Washington DC Plane in the Water
- Thread starter NikFDNY
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Something I just read said basically, the plane called and asked for the shorter runway, which was granted. ( This is fairly normal as planes will sometimes ask if they can get a runway closer to their terminal) The helicopter was either taking off or was already airborne, and was told by atc to pass behind the crj. Apparently for whatever the reason, they didn't.
Eta. It was the other way around. ATC had them switch runways for sequencing. Though pilots will ask on occasion.
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This is from CNN,
Air traffic controller audio obtained by CNN from LiveATC.net captures the moment the air traffic control operators ask the helicopter if the commercial flight operated by PSA Airlines is in sight.
An air traffic controller said, “PAT 2-5 do you have the CRJ in sight?”
The controller then said, “PAT 2-5 pass behind the CRJ.”
Additional air traffic control audio shortly before the collision captures the helicopter pilot saying, “PAT 2-5 has aircraft in sight, request visual separation.”
Less than 13 seconds later, the audio then captured audible gasps, including a loud “oooh” in the background apparently from the tower, at the moment of the crash.
The tower then alerted another pilot of what has taken place.
“I don’t know if you caught earlier what happened, but there was a collision on the approach end of 3-3. We are going to be shutting down operations for the indefinite future if you want to go back to the gate. Highly suggest you guys coordinate with the company. Let me know what you want to do,” the controller says, referencing runway 33.
The audio also revealed that another pilot had seen the incident and confirmed with an air traffic controller.
Another pilot could be heard saying, “Yeah, we were on short final, and we saw flares from the opposite side of the Potomac.”
An approach controller later said, “Apparently both aircraft involved are in the river, a search and rescue will be ongoing.”
A number of other aircraft made plans to divert to other airports following the incident as flights at DCA were halted.
Air traffic controller audio obtained by CNN from LiveATC.net captures the moment the air traffic control operators ask the helicopter if the commercial flight operated by PSA Airlines is in sight.
An air traffic controller said, “PAT 2-5 do you have the CRJ in sight?”
The controller then said, “PAT 2-5 pass behind the CRJ.”
Additional air traffic control audio shortly before the collision captures the helicopter pilot saying, “PAT 2-5 has aircraft in sight, request visual separation.”
Less than 13 seconds later, the audio then captured audible gasps, including a loud “oooh” in the background apparently from the tower, at the moment of the crash.
The tower then alerted another pilot of what has taken place.
“I don’t know if you caught earlier what happened, but there was a collision on the approach end of 3-3. We are going to be shutting down operations for the indefinite future if you want to go back to the gate. Highly suggest you guys coordinate with the company. Let me know what you want to do,” the controller says, referencing runway 33.
The audio also revealed that another pilot had seen the incident and confirmed with an air traffic controller.
Another pilot could be heard saying, “Yeah, we were on short final, and we saw flares from the opposite side of the Potomac.”
An approach controller later said, “Apparently both aircraft involved are in the river, a search and rescue will be ongoing.”
A number of other aircraft made plans to divert to other airports following the incident as flights at DCA were halted.
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The TCAS is always on and will issue a "Traffic! Traffic!" alert at any altitude. It does not issue resolution advisories (Climb! Climb!) below 1000 ft AGL.
It is unknown if the Blackhawk had TCAS. It was a Gold Top unit for VIP transport. At the time of impact it was flying helicopter Route 4 which crosses the Potomac south of DCA. Helo's are required to maintain an altitude at or below 200' AGL and have the responsibility to avoid other traffic. This collision took place slightly below 400'.
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Thank you for clearing up my inaccurate information. Shut off was the wrong useage.
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Certainly looks like a major miscalc on the PAT25 side, the AA flight was on an established and published glideslope approach to 33. The fact they called that they had the AA flight in sight and still kept on is beyond sad. I hope for comfort for all the families who have lost loved ones in what appears to be a horrific accident.
There is a lot of discussion today that while PAT 25 acknowledged that they had 'The Aircraft In Sight' it may not have been the CRJ the Tower was referring to.
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National News is thanking our political leaders for the job they have done so far.
I didn't know of any of them (politicians) that were assisting the Coast Guard, Fire or Police Depts., EMS, Rescue Workers etc, out there in the fridged cold water, in the middle of the night helping to locate victims.
As a country we need to give proper credit to those that really deserve it.
My prayers go out to all the family members who have lost their loved one in this terrible crash.
I didn't know of any of them (politicians) that were assisting the Coast Guard, Fire or Police Depts., EMS, Rescue Workers etc, out there in the fridged cold water, in the middle of the night helping to locate victims.
As a country we need to give proper credit to those that really deserve it.
My prayers go out to all the family members who have lost their loved one in this terrible crash.
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Having been a passenger in a helo flying at about 500 feet over Houston at night, I can testify that city light "pollution" is beautiful, but distracting if you are looking for something. This is particularly true while looking for something near the horizon or close by unless they are above you. Also, in that situation, seeing a moving object may seem easy when you are stationary. It becomes almost impossible when you are also moving (landing lights excepted). And these light sources are moving at 200-250 feet per second.There is a lot of discussion today that while PAT 25 acknowledged that they had 'The Aircraft In Sight' it may not have been the CRJ the Tower was referring to.
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This crash is not far from the location of the Air Florida crash. That was on January 13, 1982, I believe. After that crash many studies were done on air crashes or ditching in cold water. A few things were found out.
1. People usually can live for NOT more than :20 minutes emersed in cold water sometimes a bit longer if "Mammalian Dive Reflex" kicks in and slows their metabolism.
2. Any unequipped rescuer, as well intentioned as he/she may be, can add to the problem by becoming a victim of cold-water emersion.
3. Helicopter Rescues must be done by properly trained and equipped flight crews, or by trained rescuers, transported via helicopter and lowered or dropped down to victims, the downwash of the helicopter's rotary blades can further cool victims already cooled by the cold water.
4. Rescue boats and surf/water response units must be equipped and members trained for cold water operations.
5. Great training can be had in such operations. I took mine with Captain John Norman FDNY, later Chief of Rescue Services FDNY and a Nassau County L.I. N.Y. senior instructor at that time.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
1. People usually can live for NOT more than :20 minutes emersed in cold water sometimes a bit longer if "Mammalian Dive Reflex" kicks in and slows their metabolism.
2. Any unequipped rescuer, as well intentioned as he/she may be, can add to the problem by becoming a victim of cold-water emersion.
3. Helicopter Rescues must be done by properly trained and equipped flight crews, or by trained rescuers, transported via helicopter and lowered or dropped down to victims, the downwash of the helicopter's rotary blades can further cool victims already cooled by the cold water.
4. Rescue boats and surf/water response units must be equipped and members trained for cold water operations.
5. Great training can be had in such operations. I took mine with Captain John Norman FDNY, later Chief of Rescue Services FDNY and a Nassau County L.I. N.Y. senior instructor at that time.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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When we returned from a FAC mission to Phu Bai Combat Base we always kept our heads on a swivel for helicopters. Medevacs, gunships responding on a priority mission, even with a control tower of sorts.
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In addition to the swiss cheese model of accident analysis, one other concept needs to be considered here:
Normalization of deviance
Noted here above was the fact that helicopters flying the Route 4 corridor near DCA were required to keep to the east bank of the Potomac River, were responsible to avoid other traffic, and maintain an altitude of no higher than 200 feet AGL (300 feet south of the Wilson Bridge).
It turns out that military helicopter units (including Marine 1 except when they were using a Presidential TFR) routinely flew this route above 200 feet and were repeatedly being warned about this violation from DCA tower ATC personnel. Classic deviation behavior that had become normal. Now 67 people are dead.
Normalization of deviance
Noted here above was the fact that helicopters flying the Route 4 corridor near DCA were required to keep to the east bank of the Potomac River, were responsible to avoid other traffic, and maintain an altitude of no higher than 200 feet AGL (300 feet south of the Wilson Bridge).
It turns out that military helicopter units (including Marine 1 except when they were using a Presidential TFR) routinely flew this route above 200 feet and were repeatedly being warned about this violation from DCA tower ATC personnel. Classic deviation behavior that had become normal. Now 67 people are dead.
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(SEE ABOVE) Normalization of Deviance - 'Over time clearly unsafe practices, without negative outcomes, come to be considered 'Normal Behavior', that is until the Inevitable Catastrophic Occurs." This is from I.A.F.F Seminar Guest Speaker - Astronaut Mike Mellone.
"This is true in many aspects of lives, including firefighting." Photo Below Ladder Bailout= Where is his search partner?
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
"This is true in many aspects of lives, including firefighting." Photo Below Ladder Bailout= Where is his search partner?
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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I saw that reported twice over here yesterday.There is a lot of discussion today that while PAT 25 acknowledged that they had 'The Aircraft In Sight' it may not have been the CRJ the Tower was referring to.
Just before the collision a plane takes off from the airport. The suggestion was made that the helo may have "acknowledged" sight of that plane and not the landing one.
Regardless thoughts are with all those lost, their families and loved ones. Terrible incident
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Philippine National Police Colonel among the dead.
Police Col. Pergentino N. Malabed was in the United States inspecting vests with two other colleagues. The Col had taken a cortusey flight out of Wichita to pay a visit to a colleague at the Philippines's Embassy in D.C.
Police Col. Pergentino N. Malabed was in the United States inspecting vests with two other colleagues. The Col had taken a cortusey flight out of Wichita to pay a visit to a colleague at the Philippines's Embassy in D.C.