10-75 Signal Revision

H

HCO

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May 14, 2007
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The FDNY 7-5 "All Hands" response is to be upgraded in the near future by adding one engine and one ladder to the current assignment.

The total 7-5 response will be 5 engines, 3 ladders + the FAST ladder, two BC, DC, Rescue, Squad, and RAC.
 
Why are they adding a Engine and Truck? Is that because they request a lot of extra Engine and trucks on all hands?
 
Will this change the response going up? Will 2nd Alarms continue to receive 4 extra engines or just 3?
 
The change in assignment is probably due to the reduction of manpower in the Engines. It'll give a head start to get another Engine to assist a 2nd or 3rd line in operation. And the extra truck, 3rd one, will be able to pick up the slack that the 1st or 2nd due can't perform because of how and where they are operating. The other big factor I see is there are more occupied building fires and with the lithion battery fires spreading so fast and intense, the sooner help is there the faster extinguishment will be. Not as many vacant building fires like we saw during the war years.
 
Wonder if this will result in the initial FAST truck not going to work for FF duty as much anymore, now not needing to S/C another FAST. With the extra truck already on scene the initial FAST will probably remain it for the duration. Not that this happened often
 
If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, it definitely prompts a great discussion. If I can springboard off of TA176’s post above: the signal 10-75 was developed and implemented many decades ago, during a time which experienced greater staffing of 1-2 more members on each rig, a time when traffic congestion was a lot less, a time when FDNY was NOT responding to CFRD runs and the drastic increase in emergencies other than fires, a time when fires were not as hot, not as rapidly spreading and not producing as much smoke as today. Shuffle forward to today. The staffing has decreased, and the bunker gear has brought on heavier , bulkier, and generally more body heat Retainment than the old lighter weight Scott 4.5s, pull-up boots (or work boots for truck men) and coat. The traffic has increased exponentially all around the city, and many areas are seeing these traffic calming devices etc which further slow rigs down. Add to that that as opposed to 50 years ago, there is a greater chance of one or more of the initial assigned companies to a box being out of their response area due to increased training at the rock, medicals, and increased changeovers to spare rigs ( high tech, NFPA interlocks and electronics definitely have increased rigs being out of service) results in the companies need to fill out the initial assignment are often coming from greater distances. Companies tied up on CFR runs, CO runs, Elevator removals, etc also add to a “missing company” on the Initial box having to be filled with a company coming from a greater distance.

Today’s modern fires burn hotter, faster and produce tremendously more volumes of smoke than the legacy fires of 40 - 50 years ago. Flashover in as little as 4 minutes as opposed to legacy fires of time to flashover of 30 minutes. The tremendous increase in volume and toxicity of the smoke in today’s fires, coupled with modern energy efficient building construction demands an even greater need for additional truck companies at almost any significant fire in a MD, mixed occupancy or high rise. Lastly there is the data. There is an old saying liars can figure and figures can lie. The Rand Corporation data and studies of the 1970’s were a disaster for FDNY. But if one carefully exams how many times Chiefs are calling for an extra 1 and 1 , or transmitting an additional alarm, and looking at response times in certain areas, it most likely indicates that there is a need to get additional resources out on the street and into these boxes more quickly- thus revising and upgrading the 10-75 signal as suggested. Times, geography, the physical operating environment, staffing, company availability, travel times, travel distances, Fire behavior, and building construction are all factors that have significantly changed since the last revision of the signal 10-75. Seems like a very logical and practical move to increase member safety and increase the public’s safety. Just my observations and opinion. Happy Easter. Stay safe
 
Its for overhaul. The extra one and one are designated overhaul companies.

They don’t want the first due units doing overhaul anymore if possible.

Part of the ongoing cancer initiative.

However - of course it will be command’s discretion in conjunction with the first due units to actually implement it, but the intent is for overhaul.

If its a run of the mill job, we do our thing and still have at least half a bottle left, I may want my two young guys some practice at trimming windows, opening up, etc. Or of course some time on the nozzle if in the Engine.
 
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twoteamtease said:
Its for overhaul. The extra one and one are designated overhaul companies.

They don’t want the first due units doing overhaul anymore if possible.

Part of the ongoing cancer initiative.

However - of course it will be command’s discretion in conjunction with the first due units to actually implement it, but the intent is for overhaul.

If its a run of the mill job, we do our thing and still have at least half a bottle left, I may want my two young guys some practice at trimming windows, opening up, etc. Or of course some time on the nozzle if in the Engine.
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Aha - makes sense good stuff.
 
locations with street alterations or neighborhoods with narrow tight streets it may be a good idea to make sure a tower ladder is assigned.
 
Even though its adding a extra E+T that doesn't stop the IC from s/c'ing another E+T above the new signal. Also how does this effect 2-2, 3-3, 4-4 and 5-5 signals?
 
So if extra Eng. & Trk have to wait till fire is extinguished to go to work, doesn't sound too productive. Maybe this is a trial and error change, like some of the previous changes such as the Adaptive Response, 2 Eng. & 1 Trk, in the early 70's and then the CFU's later on.
 
Darrell said:
Even though its adding a extra E+T that doesn't stop the IC from s/c'ing another E+T above the new signal. Also how does this affect 2-2, 3-3, 4-4 and 5-5 signals?
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Once you get the extra engine on the AHs you can’t request another engine… only for CFRD or it has to go to the next higher alarm or if it’s PWH and for relief.
 
I drove a Chief in da Bronx in the 80's who had a policy that if he said using all hands to also call for an extra Engine and Truck. Reasoning was he would rather have it coming and not use it instead of needing it and not having it. This is in that direction. Also remember that a usual strength is first stretches initial line and second due assists. Third due stretches second line and fourth due assists. In some locations, and I saw it around Pelham Parkway area, it would take the first three Engines to stretch the first line because the stretches where extremely long. This is in conjunction with what Capttomo said above.
 
EdMc said:
I drove a Chief in da Bronx in the 80's who had a policy that if he said using all hands to also call for an extra Engine and Truck. Reasoning was he would rather have it coming and not use it instead of needing it and not having it. This is in that direction. Also remember that a usual strength is first stretches initial line and second due assists. Third due stretches second line and fourth due assists. In some locations, and I saw it around Pelham Parkway area, it would take the first three Engines to stretch the first line because the stretches where extremely long. This is in conjunction with what Capttomo said above.
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I remember a Boston's District Chief reasoning: Hey I can always send them back!
 
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