3/22/24 Brooklyn 4th Alarm Box 3780

[EMS2507]

 

[72 Hahn]

Nobody does it better than the FDNY in aggressively getting water on the fire and gaining control of an incident. This four alarm fire proves that.

The FDNY has perfected the placement and use of Tower Ladders at large-scale, outside fires. But, ever once in a while, due to the size or arrangement of the street, vehicle congestion on the street or the arrival sequence of apparatus, a Tower Ladder is not available where it can do the most good.

Long before Tower Ladders were introduced, the FDNY mastered the art of ladder pipes on steel aerials to place a large volume of water from an elevated position on the main body of the fire in defensive operations. The FDNY became so proficient in the operation of ladder pipes from steel aerials that they phased out the tried and true Water Towers.

Sunday morning quarterbacking is always easy, but that's not the point of my observation of this incident. It just makes me think, has the fire service in general, and the FDNY in particular, relegated the occasional use of ladder pipes as a lost art not worthy of continued consideration?

 

[FDNY704]

How does the exposers get assigned such as Exposer 2, 2A and so on?

 

[manlt]

Fire Building is 0. Looking at the fire building exposures are: 1 the front (usually street), 2 is to the left, 3 is the rear, 4 is the right.
The first building to the left is 2, next 2A, 2B, etc. Same for the 4 side. 3 is a little harder if you need to break down into multiple exposures. Same for 1.

 

[E812]

Both trucks on box were a tiller & rear mount, FT was a TL.
1st truck assigned on 2nd was aTL & another TL special called as per posted rundown. Wonder if TL’s were operated as TL’s at some point?

There is a video that runs about 19 minutes & in it shows 147 backing out so that a tower ladder could set up in front of the fire building

 

[grumpy grizzly]

Nobody does it better than the FDNY in aggressively getting water on the fire and gaining control of an incident. This four alarm fire proves that.

The FDNY has perfected the placement and use of Tower Ladders at large-scale, outside fires. But, ever once in a while, due to the size or arrangement of the street, vehicle congestion on the street or the arrival sequence of apparatus, a Tower Ladder is not available where it can do the most good.

Long before Tower Ladders were introduced, the FDNY mastered the art of ladder pipes on steel aerials to place a large volume of water from an elevated position on the main body of the fire in defensive operations. The FDNY became so proficient in the operation of ladder pipes from steel aerials that they phased out the tried and true Water Towers.

Sunday morning quarterbacking is always easy, but that's not the point of my observation of this incident. It just makes me think, has the fire service in general, and the FDNY in particular, relegated the occasional use of ladder pipes as a lost art not worthy of continued consideration?

From a 80's job in Chicago Truck 4's pipe in operation at a 5-11. CFD has a 137' E-One with a pre-pipe water that runs as Aerial Tower 8. They had 2 in the 80's but one was written off in a MVA. I believe today that CFD does not do pipe evolutions and that they do not carry them anymore but I may be mistaken. They get a tower ladder on a box alarm and a second on the second alarm as well as the 55' snorkel from the squad company.

 

[den114]

There is a video that runs about 19 minutes & in it shows 147 backing out so that a tower ladder could set up in front of the fire building

I know 157 was the Fast truck & 114, 1st on the 2nd alarm. Unless blocked out br other units, 157 might have been on block, same for 114. As long as their approach was opposite of each other, then both exposures of fire building would be “covered”.
Again, as stated in another post, depends on block & units already in it on hydrants, etc.

 

[Hank]

I know 157 was the Fast truck & 114, 1st on the 2nd alarm. Unless blocked out br other units, 157 might have been on block, same for 114. As long as their approach was opposite of each other, then both exposures of fire building would be “covered”.
Again, as stated in another post, depends on block & units already in it on hydrants, etc.

Yes, eventually 157 took the front of the fire building along with 153. 131 & 172 I believe were set up on E 4th St.

 

[den114]

Yes, eventually 157 took the front of the fire building along with 153. 131 & 172 I believe were set up on E 4th St.

Just saw a video & it showed 114 in opposite direction just past E 250, which was hooked up. Couldn’t tell what exposure they were IFO. 2A,2B? Heard on transmission’s they operated in exposure 2.
No video of TL’s operating, that I’ve seen.

 

[Captain784]

I realize am not at the fire, but I do know this. Aerial Ladders in front of the fire buildings did little good. This fire was so advanced that Tower Ladders in front of the buildings would have allowed the use of Tower Ladder streams to reduce the fire enough for an interior attack to recommence. In advanced fires the use of Tower Ladders or other Large Caliber Streams is often a safer, faster option, then interior handlines "AT FIRST "and only for a few minutes or so. This does NOT mean a total exterior attack. It means knock the major fire down, and then an aggressive interior attack, can be started or restarted after an evaluation of the structural stability of the fire building/s in done by one or more trained Chief/s or Company officer/s. The Chicago Fire Department calls this "RERSETTING THE FIRE" A Tower Ladder or Tower Ladders directed to the street to the rear of the fire buildings could possibly be backed into a driveway on the exposure 3 - C Side, to deal with the heavy fire in the rear of the buildings. I realize I am a "Monday Morning Quarterback" and I was not at this fire. I am just giving another option based on over 50 years of firefighting, most of my learning being the hard way. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired.

 

[ScottBerliner]

172 & 131 were on east 4th street set up and 157 &153 set up on east 3rd street once they cleared the block of the aerials and tiller. 172 went into operation first followed by the other 3 alittle bit later.

 

[den114]

172 & 131 were on east 4th street set up and 157 &153 set up on east 3rd street once they cleared the block of the aerials and tiller. 172 went into operation first followed by the other 3 alittle bit later.

Saw that mentioned in an earlier comment, just wonder why 114 just didn’t pull up towards where 147 was? Couldn’t tell from video if that was possible. Believe 281 was in front of fire buildings.

 

[ScottBerliner]

Saw that mentioned in an earlier comment, just wonder why 114 just didn’t pull up towards where 147 was? Couldn’t tell from video if that was possible. Believe 281 was in front of fire buildings.

281 was in front and there was another engine down the block on a hydrant, so no trucks could come in from Beverley Road.

 

[FFM1938]

Deck gun in operation, thats a rarity in the FDNY these days!

 

[72 Hahn]

Deck gun in operation, thats a rarity in the FDNY these days!

So, each new Engine is equipped with a deck gun, but "a rarity" that they are put into operation.

Likewise, each new Ladder is equipped with a ladder pipe, but they are almost never used.

Before Tower Ladders, deck guns and ladder pipes were the main stay of the FDNY for putting a lot of water on big fires from the "get-go". Many other urban fire department followed the lead of the FDNY and adopted similar tactics. Some departments still use deck guns and ladder pipes regularly and effectively, even though the number of "big" fires is down.

Hand lines, 1 3/4 or 2 1/2, followed by Tower Ladders are the current weapons of choice for the FDNY.

Will ladder pipes, and eventually deck guns, be phased out by the FDNY like scaling ladders? The FDNY leads, others follow.

 

[1261Truckie]

So, each new Engine is equipped with a deck gun, but "a rarity" that they are put into operation.

Likewise, each new Ladder is equipped with a ladder pipe, but they are almost never used.

Before Tower Ladders, deck guns and ladder pipes were the main stay of the FDNY for putting a lot of water on big fires from the "get-go". Many other urban fire department followed the lead of the FDNY and adopted similar tactics. Some departments still use deck guns and ladder pipes regularly and effectively, even though the number of "big" fires is down.

Hand lines, 1 3/4 or 2 1/2, followed by Tower Ladders are the current weapons of choice for the FDNY.

Will ladder pipes, and eventually deck guns, be phased out by the FDNY like scaling ladders? The FDNY leads, others follow.

Even though deck pipes and ladder pipes are "almost never used" these days, there is still a place for them in modern day firefighting, and not just as defensive weapons in an IC's playbook. Whether it is a quick shot with a deck pipe before an interior attack, protecting a rescue from a floor above a fire or an elevated stream from a fixed position these tools are still needed and should be used when called for.

 

[Captain784]

At advanced "Big fires" Engine Companies can place their rigs on or partially on the sidewalk or shoulder of the road, to allow Tower Ladders and/or Snorkels to reach the front of the fire building/s. Large diameter hose must be placed on the sidewalk or shoulder of the road, if at all possible, to avoid interfering with Ladder Company apparatus positioning. The "Address of the fire building belongs to the truck company" the is true especially for Tower Ladders, at advanced fire and building collapses. Sometimes that means the Engine Co. NOT taking a hydrant in such a way as to block or impede incoming Ladder Companies. If that means bypassing the hydrant in front of the building and continuing to the next hydrant, so be it. The exception is when the deck gun of the Engine Company is urgently needed to protect human life, in front of the building. Also, if possible, the Engine Hosebed should be facing the fire building/s. below is a photo of a fire I was at in Midwood, Brooklyn close to this fire's location.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired.

 

[68jk09]

Woman seriously injured after massive fire burns through Brooklyn homes

NewsCopter 7 was over the fiery scene in located at 413 E. Third St. between Beverly Road and Avenue C in Kensington.

abc7ny.com

 

[tom113]

So, each new Engine is equipped with a deck gun, but "a rarity" that they are put into operation.

Likewise, each new Ladder is equipped with a ladder pipe, but they are almost never used.

Before Tower Ladders, deck guns and ladder pipes were the main stay of the FDNY for putting a lot of water on big fires from the "get-go". Many other urban fire department followed the lead of the FDNY and adopted similar tactics. Some departments still use deck guns and ladder pipes regularly and effectively, even though the number of "big" fires is down.

Hand lines, 1 3/4 or 2 1/2, followed by Tower Ladders are the current weapons of choice for the FDNY.

Will ladder pipes, and eventually deck guns, be phased out by the FDNY like scaling ladders? The FDNY leads, others follow.

And Life Nets.

 

[den114]

281 was in front and there was another engine down the block on a hydrant, so no trucks could come in from

281 was in front and there was another engine down the block on a hydrant, so no trucks could come in from Beverley Road.

E250 & L 114 came in from Beverly Rd , can be seen in one of the videos.