7/7/26 Manhattan Collapse Box 790

FDNYSTATENISLAND said:
Pardon my ignorance but does a drone flying inside a building give the same answers they’re looking for compared to humans inspecting? Generally curious. I think it sounds the same as a “surround and drown” operation of a vacant but in this case maybe brief inspections by SOC before seeing how serious this is was necessary? Either way, you’re more experienced than I would be and it makes for good discussion.
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You and I would call it experience or perhaps "street smarts". The proper concept is the German word "Gestalt"- looking at something as a whole rather than as a collection of separate parts. Humans do it, drones can't (so far).
 
seniorofficer said:
I think the initial use of drones would be better to evaluate whether or not it was safe enough to put even one member on those floors to evaluate the situation. Worst case scenario - I'd rather chance losing two or three $50,000 drones than ONE member if even a partial collapse would occur.
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The other 2 problems with drones, are size and signal. A building, especially under construction may block the signal the drone needs to operate. In which case it's useless. They typically need access to a.certain amount of satellites to operate effectively. The other problem is the size of the drone vs the space available. In some cases, the drone may be physically to big to maneuver around or tbrough obstacles like door frames, some hallways etc.
Another issues is the actual feel of the bldg. Walking thru a floor, a person may feel the floor spongy, or bowed, feel vibrations,hear the joints stressing or moving, or notice things a drone wouldn't. A drone can't open door which if it doesn't open normally is another clue something isn't right. Unfortunately this is one of those catch 22s.
 
I saw in the photos above Chief of Rescue Operations Downey on the scene and this reminded of what, retired, Deputy Chief Vincent Dunn has repeated over and over again, the Collapse Zone for any building must be at least 1 & 1/2 Times the height of the building, but lethal fragments/components of the building can travel far over 1 1/2 X and at times alot more if they roll. The use of drones and also the old school use of surveyor's transits can keep an eye on any exterior movements from a safe distance. But how do you maintain a collapse zone for a 36-story building in Midtown Manhattan? Who approved the building plans? Who has been inspecting the construction site? My experience with the NYC Building Department is not a good one, often the Bldg. departments "engineers" are fatally wrong, and I can site fatality building collapse reports to prove it.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired.
 
Cliff Johnson of Steamfitters Local 638, who was working inside the building, told PIX11 News that his members were inside when the structure began to fail.

“The general contractor chose to go non‑union for this project. All we want is responsible construction in the City of New York,” Johnson said. “They did not shore up the job correctly. The beams started crumbling, the floors started crumbling, and they might have to evacuate the other side.”


Johnson said the project was a total renovation, with crews gutting the 33‑story building and planning to add another 16 stories.
 
In many ways, this can be attributed to Mayor Mamdani’s newly released “Block by Block - The Housing Plan for a New Era,” which proposes $22 billion in capital investment over five years to build 200,000 new affordable homes and preserve 200,000 more. The plan also allocates $5.6 billion to NYCHA repairs, aggressive zoning overhauls, and tenant protections through roof-to-cellar inspections.
But buried in the 112-page document is a wage provision that threatens the very workers who will build these homes. The administration frames its policy as a win for labor, but the reality is that the plan implements a $40.00-per-hour top scale limit for construction wages on these projects.
Let's be perfectly clear: a $40.00/hour top scale is not a prevailing wage. It operates as a strict cap.
Because of this rigid $40.00 maximum hourly rate, signatory contractors of the NYC Building Trades will completely lose the ability to compete for or participate in this work. Highly skilled union carpenters, laborers, electricians, plumbers, ironworkers, and operating engineers earn far above a $40.00/hr top scale when you factor in standard prevailing wage rates, health benefits, pensions, and mandatory apprenticeship funding. The end result - General contractors utilizing non-union laborers and companies that circumvent codes and regulations.
 
A lot of good stuff here, questions and comments. While the FDNY does employ some highly remarkable individuals with world class experience And engineering degrees, I would never like to say expert because the minute you hold someone to that regard, they frequently get someone killed.
Like Entropy said, it’s always a game time decision, and the fire service 100% of the time likes to prove searches throughout are negative, examine the situation and get a good beat on the job at hand. That said, the Robotics unit does have small drones that can be wasted for mere hundreds of dollars as part of a recon mission for a situation of this magnitude. With reports from the workers who were inside and video from the drones we can get a pretty decent preliminary of what’s going on from the outside before putting people at terrific risk as @seniorofficer mentioned. While the odds of a skeletal steel building suffering a global collapse are extremely unlikely, and a localized collapse of the damaged area being more probable, anything is still possible. At the onset we aren’t yet certain on the cause of two channel rails folding like cheap suits and several concrete floors showing severe deflection. I don’t believe it’s ever happened and nobody really has any experience. But, as far as experience does go, @RCL is right, we have several senses that lead our intuition that hopefully a robot will never have LOL.
While the building is still showing some movement, let’s hope they set a plan and get some shoring in place before things get worse. Either way, I feel like this building is now forever tainted.
And yes, 161 Maiden and the millennium tower in San Fran need to come down. Another corner cutting project.
 
Some of Us may remember the Citicorp Building on 53rd Street had massive problems. When they realized they had a structural issue the building was already occupied. They did not want to panic the new tenants so a plan was put in place to strengthen its columns at night with plates. The issue was discovered the original building engineer. His plans during the construction phase had been altered. So not the first time.

en.wikipedia.org

Citicorp Center engineering crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
tperez102 said:
Some of Us may remember the Citicorp Building on 53rd Street had massive problems. When they realized they had a structural issue the building was already occupied. They did not want to panic the new tenants so a plan was put in place to strengthen its columns at night with plates. The issue was discovered the original building engineer. His plans during the construction phase had been altered. So not the first time.

en.wikipedia.org

Citicorp Center engineering crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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That was a episode on one of the sattelite channels. Like the wikipedia post says it was an engineering student who discovered the problem.
 
I think but I could be wrong but didnt the Twin Towers have to be structurally reinforced after or while they were being built? I remember one of the other towers in NY had an issue just dont remember which off hand.
 
tperez102 said:
Some of Us may remember the Citicorp Building on 53rd Street had massive problems. When they realized they had a structural issue the building was already occupied. They did not want to panic the new tenants so a plan was put in place to strengthen its columns at night with plates. The issue was discovered the original building engineer. His plans during the construction phase had been altered. So not the first time.

en.wikipedia.org

Citicorp Center engineering crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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There is a great piece on this on YouTube.
 
In my totally un expert opinion, this thing is coming down one way or another, especially if there's significant heavy rain or wind. Any additional outside forces will only add to the problem..my question is, will it be a total or partial collapse?
 
SOC has structural engineers they are used to working with on the FEMA USAR side. That is who they work with in any collapse situations within the five Boro's. That being said SOC members do receive a healthy amount of training and education on structural collapse.
 
This is typical of the way things are done in NYC. Politicians get involved and the safety of everyone goes out the door. This building had multiple Dept. of Buildings violations and still the mayor needs to fulfil his election promises most likely interfered with safely adding housing. The architects may have screwed up making their stress calculations and no one in the NYC building Dept. really checked it, so here we are. I spent 30 years in the FDNY, and I have numerous sad stories about how inept the NYC building inspectors. I have been involved in fatal building collapses and still no one calls for real changes in the NYC Building Dept. that has not and perhaps still is not keeping construction safe and correctly done.
 
captaindewey50267021@gm said:
This is typical of the way things are done in NYC. Politicians get involved and the safety of everyone goes out the door. This building had multiple Dept. of Buildings violations and still the mayor needs to fulfil his election promises most likely interfered with safely adding housing. The architects may have screwed up making their stress calculations and no one in the NYC building Dept. really checked it, so here we are. I spent 30 years in the FDNY, and I have numerous sad stories about how inept the NYC building inspectors. I have been involved in fatal building collapses and still no one calls for real changes in the NYC Building Dept. that has not and perhaps still is not keeping construction safe and correctly done.
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In the 65 years I've been following things in the fire service, almost every episode of Fire Department corruption in the United States has revolved around inspection/ permit issues. It is NOT ineptitude, it is uniformed employees taking the bribe and looking the other way. NYC Building inspectors are no different.
 
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