9/27/26 Queens 3rd Alarm Box 9360

I have taught FAST/RIT operations for years now A what is said above about units nears the Mayday or Member of the firefighter's own unit removing the firefighter giving the mayday is true. In only about 10% to 12 % does the FAST/RIT actually remove the member giving the Mayday, BUT there ARE some situations where more members than just one are trapped, for example a structural collapse, or flashover or other situations that effects an entire floor or large area of the building. It takes more members than you think to safely remove an injured or trapped member. Make it MEMBERS and you truly need more help removing perhaps multiple trapped or injured firefighters. I have over 50 years of firefighting experience, including 30 years working in some of the busiest areas in the FDNY. I have been involved in more than a dozen actual Maydays!
The truth is you never have enough help when the Mayday is for multiple members, or a collapse or sudden rapid-fire spread. The Chief that put the FAST/RIT Team to work for other than Maydays! should be disciplined. Forward placement of the FAST/RIT Team places them in the position of also being trapped by a major/sizable. Collapse or other danger. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
 
captaindewey50267021@gm said:
I have taught FAST/RIT operations for years now A what is said above about units nears the Mayday or Member of the firefighter's own unit removing the firefighter giving the mayday is true. In only about 10% to 12 % does the FAST/RIT actually remove the member giving the Mayday, BUT there ARE some situations where more members than just one are trapped, for example a structural collapse, or flashover or other situations that effects an entire floor or large area of the building. It takes more members than you think to safely remove an injured or trapped member. Make it MEMBERS and you truly need more help removing perhaps multiple trapped or injured firefighters. I have over 50 years of firefighting experience, including 30 years working in some of the busiest areas in the FDNY. I have been involved in more than a dozen actual Maydays!
The truth is you never have enough help when the Mayday is for multiple members, or a collapse or sudden rapid-fire spread. The Chief that put the FAST/RIT Team to work for other than Maydays! should be disciplined. Forward placement of the FAST/RIT Team places them in the position of also being trapped by a major/sizable. Collapse or other danger. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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You are not a Chief, therefore you are not responsible for decision making on the fire ground. This Chief running this fire knows what he is doing and had reasons to put the FAST Unit to work. Try reaching out to him and ask, but to post that he should be disciplined is absolutely absurd
 
captaindewey50267021@gm said:
I have taught FAST/RIT operations for years now A what is said above about units nears the Mayday or Member of the firefighter's own unit removing the firefighter giving the mayday is true. In only about 10% to 12 % does the FAST/RIT actually remove the member giving the Mayday, BUT there ARE some situations where more members than just one are trapped, for example a structural collapse, or flashover or other situations that effects an entire floor or large area of the building. It takes more members than you think to safely remove an injured or trapped member. Make it MEMBERS and you truly need more help removing perhaps multiple trapped or injured firefighters. I have over 50 years of firefighting experience, including 30 years working in some of the busiest areas in the FDNY. I have been involved in more than a dozen actual Maydays!
The truth is you never have enough help when the Mayday is for multiple members, or a collapse or sudden rapid-fire spread. The Chief that put the FAST/RIT Team to work for other than Maydays! should be disciplined. Forward placement of the FAST/RIT Team places them in the position of also being trapped by a major/sizable. Collapse or other danger. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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Hello all,


Chris Paolicelli, the IC at this fire, here.

Without getting too deep on a public forum, here are a couple of points about this operation:


1) Outstanding work by all Of the units that operated. Extreme clutter condition with extension to both the attic and exposure 4. Very fast water from our engines and very difficult, but quick, opening up from our trucks and SOC units working in very difficult spots.

2) At NO TIME from the minute the original FAST Unit was in front of the building until the time the fire was placed under control, were we without a FAST Unit/ Safety Team in position and ready to go.

I promise you, there is NOTHING more important to me than the safety of our members.

Also, I have the utmost confidence in our FAST units to quickly size up a fire and know where our units are operating.

3) one of you mentioned the “mistake” of not having enough companies on scene to handle the situation. The reality is the 1st BC was very proactive in calling additional units. The 10-75/All-hands (which brings extra units) and 2nd alarm were all transmitted very early in the operation.

Unfortunately we do not yet have the technology to teleport units from their firehouse to the fire scene yet, so we still have to deal with a little lag time.

I would say, Reading the rundown of a fire on a message board and making assumptions of how operations played out is probably not the best practice.

With “50 years of experience “ I would hope you would’ve know better to just reach out to those involved before going on a public forum and bashing and calling for discipline.

Stay Safe
 
ChrisPao said:
Hello all,


Chris Paolicelli, the IC at this fire, here.

Without getting too deep on a public forum, here are a couple of points about this operation:


1) Outstanding work by all Of the units that operated. Extreme clutter condition with extension to both the attic and exposure 4. Very fast water from our engines and very difficult, but quick, opening up from our trucks and SOC units working in very difficult spots.

2) At NO TIME from the minute the original FAST Unit was in front of the building until the time the fire was placed under control, were we without a FAST Unit/ Safety Team in position and ready to go.

I promise you, there is NOTHING more important to me than the safety of our members.

Also, I have the utmost confidence in our FAST units to quickly size up a fire and know where our units are operating.

3) one of you mentioned the “mistake” of not having enough companies on scene to handle the situation. The reality is the 1st BC was very proactive in calling additional units. The 10-75/All-hands (which brings extra units) and 2nd alarm were all transmitted very early in the operation.

Unfortunately we do not yet have the technology to teleport units from their firehouse to the fire scene yet, so we still have to deal with a little lag time.

I would say, Reading the rundown of a fire on a message board and making assumptions of how operations played out is probably not the best practice.

With “50 years of experience “ I would hope you would’ve know better to just reach out to those involved before going on a public forum and bashing and calling for discipline.

Stay Safe
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Great Job as always Chief
 
A nice, spirited discussion, BUT: No one has provided any evidence after decades of use, and thousands of opportunities, of even a single anecdote of a FAST/RIT unit saving a life or decreasing a potential injury had they not been there. Statistical evidence is non-existent.

Hundreds of years ago people were burned at the stake for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Every one knew better.

A well intentioned idea that turned out to be ineffective.
 
entropychaser said:
A nice, spirited discussion, BUT: No one has provided any evidence after decades of use, and thousands of opportunities, of even a single anecdote of a FAST/RIT unit saving a life or decreasing a potential injury had they not been there. Statistical evidence is non-existent.

Hundreds of years ago people were burned at the stake for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Every one knew better.

A well intentioned idea that turned out to be ineffective.
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With a grand total of six months as a probie in a volunteer fire department (before I joined the USAF), I don't have a teaspoon, much less an oar in this water, so I'm a little reluctant to open my big mouth. But I have a thought. We assigned thousands of military men and women and spent more than a trillion dollars during the cold war providing a deterrent to keep us out of World War III. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about that. I think the same principle may apply here. It seems to me that entropychaser's statements quoted above don't support the idea that FAST trucks are ineffective . . . would you ever want to be the poor soul who has to call a Mayday if the FAST concept was discarded? And there's lots of evidence that the entire world believed that the sun revolved around the earth for a lot longer than they have believed the opposite.
 
BC Sheridan wrote an account in which following a mayday for a missing member that was low on air, the FAST Truck was able to not only find the member but supplement their oxygen

IIRC WNYF also has an article with a account of the fast truck going to work and making "the grab"

Should also keep in mind that the 5 rescue companies were established inorder to be able to rescue firefighters. FAST Trucks began to be assigned in the late 90s following an uptick in LODDs inwhich the average LODD per year dropped nearly in half from 3.33 LODD per year to on average 1.7 LODD per year since 2000 (Omitting Sep 11 LODDs). Obviously there are always other factors in place but I find it hard to believe that in no way shape or form did FAST Trucks not have the slightest effect on it

Sure had the FAST truck not been there for for any number of these rescues, theres still a chance that these members could have been rescued, but what about in the cases inwhich the member could not be relocated and they needed the pak tracker, or cases where supplemental oxygen needed to be used or even if other members have exhausted their remaining oxygen and need to leave the building.

There have been thousands of house fires throughout the US, and I can guarantee there was a fire extinguisher present at a good chunk of them. We all know that fire extinguishers arnt ineffective when the situation where you are able to actually utilize them exists.

You cant prove a safety measure is ineffective simply because you cannot identify cases where the exact outcome would have been worse without it. The counter fact, what would have happened if the resource was not present-is usually unobservable.
 
A clear insight into this particular job posted above by Chris Pao .

I would say in general if the IC decides it's necessary to utilize the FAST he is usually not doing it without a good reason & some mental size up / plan what the alternative is as far as who is there to perform FAST duty if needed.....much of the early stages of a job have this on the mind of the IC as early on very little may be known about possible unseen hazards etc & the FAST usually has not arrived that early so working without a dedicated FAST is not out of the IC's realm of running a job.......i believe the FAST is very important to have but there are certain serious situations where a workaround may be needed.
 
68jk09 said:
A clear insight into this particular job posted above by Chris Pao .

I would say in general if the IC decides it's necessary to utilize the FAST he is usually not doing it without a good reason & some mental size up / plan what the alternative is as far as who is there to perform FAST duty if needed.....much of the early stages of a job have this on the mind of the IC as early on very little may be known about possible unseen hazards etc & the FAST usually has not arrived that early so working without a dedicated FAST is not out of the IC's realm of running a job.......i believe the FAST is very important to have but there are certain serious situations where a workaround may be needed.
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Well said from a CHIEF OFFICER with decades of experience in the FDNY.
 
ChrisPao said:
Hello all,


Chris Paolicelli, the IC at this fire, here.

Without getting too deep on a public forum, here are a couple of points about this operation:


1) Outstanding work by all Of the units that operated. Extreme clutter condition with extension to both the attic and exposure 4. Very fast water from our engines and very difficult, but quick, opening up from our trucks and SOC units working in very difficult spots.

2) At NO TIME from the minute the original FAST Unit was in front of the building until the time the fire was placed under control, were we without a FAST Unit/ Safety Team in position and ready to go.

I promise you, there is NOTHING more important to me than the safety of our members.

Also, I have the utmost confidence in our FAST units to quickly size up a fire and know where our units are operating.

3) one of you mentioned the “mistake” of not having enough companies on scene to handle the situation. The reality is the 1st BC was very proactive in calling additional units. The 10-75/All-hands (which brings extra units) and 2nd alarm were all transmitted very early in the operation.

Unfortunately we do not yet have the technology to teleport units from their firehouse to the fire scene yet, so we still have to deal with a little lag time.

I would say, Reading the rundown of a fire on a message board and making assumptions of how operations played out is probably not the best practice.

With “50 years of experience “ I would hope you would’ve know better to just reach out to those involved before going on a public forum and bashing and calling for discipline.

Stay Safe
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Thanks Chris for setting the record straight!
 
North Queens said:
I believe the FAST Unit for the FDNY started in 1998
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Before the FAST truck FDNY had the FAT engine for a short time.
Don’t remember the exact time period.
But you’d respond to front of building and check in with Chief.
Could be assigned to do engine or truck duties if needed. Guess it was FD preliminary attempt at having a dedicated resource for FF assistance outside rescue or squad.
 
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