ALF Quint with Rear Mount Tower

FDNYrigs

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Over the years, I've run across a pic or two of this 'odd ball' rig assigned to Ladder Co. 14.  I assume it was a one off, but I've never heard any story behind it.  Anyone?

I apologize if this has already been discussed.

A link to a pic on flickr  https://flic.kr/p/8m37tZ
 

68jk09

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LAD*14 & LAD*163 LTI as pictured only two....also LAD*14 & LAD*119 Sutphen only two after 14 gave it up 119 had both in their qtrs 1 as spare only to used by them.....LAD*30 & LAD*132 Mack Rearmounts ...only two
 

BCR

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Hard to rember but I think there is a video on YouTube of one of the ALF towers and a brand new mack 95ft tower ladder, the ALF was being replaced and when the company went to switch over they parked them side by side, they set the  rig up and raised all the way to max elevation to see which was quicker and I think the Alf was actually slightly faster then the mack aerial scope and was also 5 feet longer 100ft- also to add there were two (I think) of the 1989 seagraves with the 110 ft ladders that were a little heavier duty ( bigger tip load I think). 4 truck had one. Part of the problem I think was the jack design - on the ALF and the 110' Seagraves they had two sets of outriggers that extended out away from the truck which required more room to set up. The stuphens are similar in foot print to the aerial scopes, the difference being the outriggers in the middle of the truck are the normal outrigger style like the rearmounts where as the scope has the A frame style. The Stuphen also only has jacks in the rear compared to front and rear with the scopes. Stuphes also come equipted with dual guns in the bucket. I know they didn't last in FDNY but stuphen makes a pretty darn good tower ladder.
 

4 truck

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Senior guys from my place said that the 110 was the best ladder they ever operated off of
 

mac8146

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The 110 foot aerials were heavy duty they had higher rails and little movement when fully extended, powerful aerial for venting windows and even blocked windows. You could short jack opposite if necessary on tight streets. Think cost was issue in not purchasing more and also the medium duty aerials Seagrave came up with fit better once old cable n drum aerials were gone.
 

FDNY793727

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Just a quick question that kind of relates to this topic. Does anyone know why FDNY uses tower ladders with the boom as opposed to an "elevated aerial platform"? With the current TLs the only way to get in and out of the bucket is to lower it to the street to allow members to enter or exit. Is it because once it's up and operating usually people stay up there?
 

BCR

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There is the escape ladder on top of the boom to get up and down if you have to. It is pretty much an aluminum extension ladder, the box boom of an aerialscope makes it a lot more durable than the ALF style rigs. Aerialscops probally have more in common with a crane than the alf style ladders. Perhaps someone could elaborate more, as I have seen a few scopes in other city's/towns that have a railing type setup ontop of the boom with the escape ladder so it could be used regularly however I don't think fdny ever had one, it did however make the boom much taller requiring more room for the boom to maneuver
 

jmag228

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Tower Ladders only have escape ladders because they are designed from a crane concept. This enables them to operate at a below grade (ie; on the sidewalk-taxpayer fires) better than any ladder apparatus ever designed. Snorkels can operate in this manner but the multiple sections require more room to operate Tower ladders can also flow water at a higher rate than other ladder trucks due to their method of construction. Their waterways run under the boom leaving no hindrance to rescue operations. Sutphen does manufacture a tower ladder with high rails on the escape ladder, however it increases the travel height by at least eighteen inches. Ladder Towers which incorporate a heavy duty ladder and platform generally have a wider jack spread, have slower operational movements and cannot operate in the same fashion as a tower ladder below the bed level of the apparatus. Ladder towers attempt to combine the best of both worlds and in my humble opinion take away from the best fire ground uses of a straight ladder or a tower ladder.  Similar to quints, it is a case of trying to cover all bases with one piece of apparatus.
 

68jk09

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In the FDNY the escape ladder on the TL is supposed to be used only in an emergency....i remember the reason being that even though the bucket remained at a selected height the boom sections could adjust to even out the load among the sections resulting in the escape ladder moving....i do not know if this happens on the latest models but the rule is still in place........PS on another TL subject ..if the modern day TLs become any slower to operate they may be standing still/.
 

auxlteng225

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Spring Valley Hook & Ladder Co. 1, Spring Valley, NY is now running a Metz/Spartan tower ladder that covers the items the others do not. !. It can be lowered below street level 2. The bucket can be removed in less that five minutes and then you have a straight 100 foot stick.  3.It can also be used as a CRANE. If you check out the Metz website you will see where they show the ladder raised  facing 90 degrees to the side, with a sling attached at the end of the bed section holding a VW Van well off the ground. 4. The pre-piped water way is located under the ladder centrally so no problem there. There truck is also equipped with a pump. All of this on a single rear axle. If you google SVFD 17 tower you can see pictures of it.
 

auxlteng225

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Thanks Anesti. That's her. And they also carry hose, ground ladders. Almost a Quint but not quite NFPA compliant as to feet of ground ladders carried.
 

auxlteng225

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If you look closely at the picture you can see the seat the the operator of the ladder sits in on the left (drivers) side of the ladder. He has full control of all functions of the ladder and also has a screen in front of him that lets him know what kind of load is on the ladder, length extended, and a few other things that I have now forgotten. I was, as a past Chief of the SVFD and the Hill Hooks on the truck committee that specked out the truck. That was back in 2002.
 

FDNY793727

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auxlteng225 said:
Thanks Anesti. That's her. And they also carry hose, ground ladders. Almost a Quint but not quite NFPA compliant as to feet of ground ladders carried.
So how does it operate at a scene? I see online that it's a volunteer department. Assuming there are no staffing issues and it shows up with 5 guys, what roles do they take? For example, is the chauffeur expected to run the aerial and the pump? Does the remaining 4 firefighters split into nozzle/backup and irons/can teams? Just seems like it can show up with dual purposes but then only enough manpower to perform one initially.
 

auxlteng225

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Spring Valley Fire Dept. is composed of three companies. Columbian Engine Co. who responds with two pumpers. Rockland Hook and Ladder Co. who responds with a Tower ladder, Rescue and ambulance and Spring Valley Hook and Ladder who responds with the tower ladder and a pumper. First in engine is the initial attack and drops a five inch supply line from closest hydrant to the scene and if needed the second in engine supplies the first. The tower ladders, in accordance with SOP take front and rear of building. If we need the stick to the roof the driver runs the ladder. In most cases the pump is used to supply the pressure to the stang mounted on the bucket. Our sop calls for five inch supply lines,  three and half inch lines on fire ground to supply engine to ladder, and  the Columbians use inch and three quarter attack lines and the Hill hooks (SVHL) use two inch. In almost all cases the ladders do ladder work and the engines engine work. They have enough manpower for this to work out well for them.  Spring Valley also has an excellent large mains hydrant system.  The ladder trucks carry five inch hose and if the situation calls for it can lay a line on the way in and be self sufficient. Long winded but hope this makes some sense of how they do it.
 

FDNY793727

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Understood, thanks. So it's not as much about operating independently. It's just primarily a standard truck with pumping capabilities.
 

JohnnyBopp

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FDNY793727 said:
Just a quick question that kind of relates to this topic. Does anyone know why FDNY uses tower ladders with the boom as opposed to an "elevated aerial platform"? With the current TLs the only way to get in and out of the bucket is to lower it to the street to allow members to enter or exit. Is it because once it's up and operating usually people stay up there?
The rated boom capacity and operation ability of the Aerialscope are far superior to a ladder with a bucket (such as LTI makes or whatever).  However, they're less versatile as you've pointed out.  For us, that's not a problem.  We've got about 150 ladder companies and most are rearmounts.  So, in the city we end up with the best of both worlds.
 
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