Old lowering evolution

Spanishharlem · Dec 4, 2019

Was reading the Div 7 newsletter on the Fitzpatrick/Frisby Fire. In it, chief Jonas makes a note that in 1980 when this fire occurred, the lowering evolution was different than it is now.
Excerpt from the newsletter:

In addition, the lowering evolution was different in 1980. It involved planting the hook of the personal harness or the Atlas Life Belt into the parapet wall.)

Can any of the vets clarify how this was done? Was there no tie off to a substantial object? Having trouble picturing it.

Here is the full newsletter. Continue to Rest In Peace FFs Frisby and Fitzpatrick

https://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/download/49/division-7-newsletters/6276/june-2015-color.docx

entropychaser · Dec 4, 2019

The interesting question Spanishharlem is: When will we hear the whole story about that hot Friday evening on 151st Street nearly four decades ago?

nfd2004 · Dec 5, 2019

As I remember during that rope rescue, the rope got caught in a crevice and it caused the rope to break.

After that, the department decided to use a piece of 2 1/2" hose to run the rope through, placing that on the roof edge to prevent the rope from chaffing.

Later as I remember, the dept came out with what I believe was called the "anti chaffing tool".

I don't know if that might answer your concern or not. Also I didn't read Chief Jonas article fully through yet and I'm really just an outsider telling it as I remember it. But the cause of this LODD was because the rescue rope broke.

Spanishharlem · Dec 5, 2019

My question was more about the actual lowering evolution, particularly the part about planting the hook of the harness into the parapet wall.

This sounds considerably different from the current procedure where the lowering member is positioned away from the parapet wall. I?m curious about how it was done the old way. And when or why it was changed.

Spanishharlem · Dec 5, 2019

After doing some research, found this picture in WNYF (3rd of 1974). It appears that there is no tie off to an anchor point, just the hook braced against the parapet wall.

68jk09 · Dec 5, 2019

^^^ Basically that was it the Belt Hook against the parapet & the lowering FF & the Rope were not tied off to a substantial object ..... 150 Ft of 13/16ths Manilla Roof Rope on a wooden reel & an Atlas Life Saving Belt & NO Anti Chafing Device .....back then the Roof Rope & the Belt were carried on a Rig with no protection from the elements or dirt etc.....(they actually used to say that water made the old Rope stronger).....today there are strict guidelines for storage in a compartment as well as weekly inspection & repacking in a clean floor area of the FH with records kept .....back then with the Manilla Rope there was no rules on how many times it could be used or when it should be inspected or its age ....also the Manilla Roof Rope was used for many other operations beside lowering & or sliding.....today the current Lifesaving Rope is only for Lifesaving & must be returned to Tech Services if it used for that or a number of points during inspection.

entropychaser · Dec 5, 2019

As you can see Spanishharlem, there is a lot of mystery about this incident. You should know that there exists two (2) novels about this day...one written by a guy named Dennis Smith. There are no non-fiction books. A fire commissioner lost his job over this. The City of New York paid the Fitzpatrick family four million dollars to avoid going to court.....and not because Larry had a really bad day.

Spanishharlem · Dec 5, 2019

Thanks 68jk09, that answers my question

Entropychaser, all I?ve been able to find on this fire was the newsletter from Chief Jonas. Wasn?t aware of the mystery surrounding it. Always interested in learning more though.

entropychaser · Dec 5, 2019

In some respects, we probably know more about the JFK assassination. I was standing in the street while it happened. I'm still speechless about it. I've talked to Chief Jonas about this two years ago. His story is generally accurate. I don't know what he knows otherwise. My observation would be that his recitation is incomplete.

******* · Dec 6, 2019

There were two incidents in 1980 with our then rope. A fire company was lifting an air-conditioning unit to a FH second floor window when the rope broke as the unit was being lifted, report was forwarded by the company. A fire company was drilling doing single slides from the roof of a 2 story FH when the rope broke, fortunately when the firefighter was only a few feet from the ground, report was forwarded by the company. Now concerned the department sent one of our ropes to a mid-west rope testing company. Late June 1980 the company sent a report to the department that their testing showed that our ropes had a "shelf life," the rope lost its strength as it aged over time. Only a few days later before any action could be taken Frisby and Fitzpatrick were killed when the rope being used in the rescue broke.

entropychaser · Dec 6, 2019

Chief....would this be the same report left by an anonymous whistleblower in the Fitzpatrick home mailbox several weeks after the funeral?

******* · Dec 6, 2019

I have no idea, first I have heard of this. I was a BC in the 10th Battalion, promoted to DC the day before this tragic incident. A few days after the deaths I was surplus (no empty DC spot that day tour) and was assigned to the Bureau of Operations for the day tour. As you can imagine the Bureau was in crisis mode. The Chief of Operations came to me with a stack of papers all concerning the past rope incidents and the testing info. He told me to read all of them and to discard any duplicates. That is the only reason I am privy to what led up to the rope testing and findings.

t123ken · Dec 6, 2019

Perhaps what entropy is referring to is a story I heard about the 151 Street incident shortly after it happened.
What I heard is that members on the roof were trying to lift the two members on the rope up to the roof rather than lower them.
I don't know for a fact if that's true and, if so, if that would have caused any more strain on the rope.
Rest in peace FF Fitzpatrick and FF Frisby.

entropychaser · Dec 6, 2019

Thank you for that insight Chief. It is hard to separate fact from fiction, even after all these years. There exists a report that a chief's aide was ordered to intentionally break the roof coping (see Chief Jonas story) that night...fact...fiction,,??? Reportedly, the LIE was closed down for Fitzie's funeral cortege.....followed later with a confrontation with a biker gang!