11/23/25 Bronx Mutual Aide Box 6300

MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.
 
lfdlt31 said:
Those are things a written Mutual Aid agreement should address. How is an FDNY member getting hurt at a Mount Vernon job any different then a Yonkers member getting hurt? Or why would the union care if FDNY is called for mutual aid but not care about other Westchester depts? I assume each dept has its own union.

I know there are many factors to calling mutual aid but it is done with no problems in many parts of North America. When the fire is through the roof (literally and/or figuratively) having the closest units responding is important. Things like hydrant or hose connects can be overcome with having adaptors on hand. There is technology to overcome radio issues, or have the chiefs stand beside each other. FD and PD all over the place are on different radios and still work together.

If Boston and Phoenix can do it so can FDNY
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No one said it can't be done by the FDNY - It is done, just not often.

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

You also said having the closest units responding is important. How come Mt. Vernon doesn't get dispatched automatically to fires north of E. 241 St? Yonkers FD to Riverdale Ave or Broadway? When both departments would beat in every 2nd due unit and maybe even 1st due units. It's because mutual aid is complex. Seems simple but it's just not that simple.

Borders exist in every single municipality. Cities must protect and serve their citizens first and assist other departments when they can.

Bottom line is there is more to it.
 
nap72 said:
MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.
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So requesting a T/L gets a total of 4 rigs and a Chief. Seems like overkill or over billing.
 
nap72 said:
No one said it can't be done by the FDNY - It is done, just not often.

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

You also said having the closest units responding is important. How come Mt. Vernon doesn't get dispatched automatically to fires north of E. 241 St? Yonkers FD to Riverdale Ave or Broadway? When both departments would beat in every 2nd due unit and maybe even 1st due units. It's because mutual aid is complex. Seems simple but it's just not that simple.

Borders exist in every single municipality. Cities must protect and serve their citizens first and assist other departments when they can.

Bottom line is there is more to it.
Click to expand...
Yonkers Fd is on a box with fdny off of riverdale ave with the 52s
 
nap72 said:
MVFD Chief asked FDNY for a 95' TL.

FDNY policy is to send 2 engines to feed the TL and send their own FAST truck, as well as a BC - a total response of 2E, 2L & 1BC.

When MVFD was told this, they declined the mutual aid.

That's what happened. No animosity, no big brother/little brother, no pissing match. Just that simple.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with this. Have to make sure the members are protected and safe. Too many variables in the mutual aid operation. Thanks for this post of clarification! Stay safe and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
 
nap72 said:
A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.
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That's 100% untrue, protection of life and property comes before any overtime possibility. I haven't heard of any westchester career department that is contractually guaranteed emergency overtime.
 
So then on the flip side, what it the acceptable number of rigs for the FDNY to send out of the city? Sure, NYC has a much deeper pool of resources, but sending even one rig out leaves that area short of fire protection. If I lived in the North Bronx I'd probably disagree with some of the statements in this thread.

There's no question that the FDMV needs more manpower and better equipment, but why should another community bear the cost with no benefit? At least the Westchester jobs respond back and forth with each other.

FDMV staffs 4 engines, 2 trucks and a command car. Mount Vernon is 4 square miles. That's not a terrible ratio but that gets used up right off the bat at a structure fire. FDMV's on duty manning probably just meets NFPA 1710 (excluding high rise jobs, which yesterday would qualify as). Even if they had FDNY's staffing per rig, they're still looking at mutual aid in some shape or form for just about any job.

Mutual Aid is just that: MUTUAL. The FDNY is not about to start calling Westchester departments across the city line for their fires. The FDNY has always been seen as a last resort because of the process to call them along with the interoperability issues that exist. As far as I know, no FDNY units carry trunk radios for Westchester's trunking system nor do they have Westchester's fireground channels in their portables (Maybe a few battalions and the Field Comm Unit does). The UTAC system would have to be activated and all that does is add another layer of radios needed on scene. We have not held a joint FDNY/Westchester mutual aid drill since the new trunk system went live a few years back. Why? Because the FDNY stopped participating.

Westchester seems to get a job like yesterday's every couple of years. Roughly the same amount of mutual aid departments that operated yesterday, either on scene or backfilling, operated at a similar job in Yonkers ~5 years ago on Garret Place and that's with all of the YFD operating as well. One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus meaning that the interruption on operations for those jobs was minimal.
 
specter328 said:
That's 100% untrue, protection of life and property comes before any overtime possibility. I haven't heard of any westchester career department that is contractually guaranteed emergency overtime.
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Westchester FDs do in fact get called in to man units that are sent to fight a fire or to man reserve units.
 
GFD70 said:
So then on the flip side, what it the acceptable number of rigs for the FDNY to send out of the city? Sure, NYC has a much deeper pool of resources, but sending even one rig out leaves that area short of fire protection. If I lived in the North Bronx I'd probably disagree with some of the statements in this thread.

There's no question that the FDMV needs more manpower and better equipment, but why should another community bear the cost with no benefit? At least the Westchester jobs respond back and forth with each other.

FDMV staffs 4 engines, 2 trucks and a command car. Mount Vernon is 4 square miles. That's not a terrible ratio but that gets used up right off the bat at a structure fire. FDMV's on duty manning probably just meets NFPA 1710 (excluding high rise jobs, which yesterday would qualify as). Even if they had FDNY's staffing per rig, they're still looking at mutual aid in some shape or form for just about any job.

Mutual Aid is just that: MUTUAL. The FDNY is not about to start calling Westchester departments across the city line for their fires. The FDNY has always been seen as a last resort because of the process to call them along with the interoperability issues that exist. As far as I know, no FDNY units carry trunk radios for Westchester's trunking system nor do they have Westchester's fireground channels in their portables (Maybe a few battalions and the Field Comm Unit does). The UTAC system would have to be activated and all that does is add another layer of radios needed on scene. We have not held a joint FDNY/Westchester mutual aid drill since the new trunk system went live a few years back. Why? Because the FDNY stopped participating.

Westchester seems to get a job like yesterday's every couple of years. Roughly the same amount of mutual aid departments that operated yesterday, either on scene or backfilling, operated at a similar job in Yonkers ~5 years ago on Garret Place and that's with all of the YFD operating as well. One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus meaning that the interruption on operations for those jobs was minimal.
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Well said.

Additionally- Specter328 should take note that what you stated - "One last thing worth noting is that most if not all department's involved yesterday recalled off-duty personnel to man reserve apparatus".

The "large scale" mutual aid Westchester/FDNY drill has not been held in a few years due to financial restrictions (e.g. - cut backs in overtime) set forth by the City Hall of NYC. The FDNY is only limited to what those who run the city allow them to do.

But there is always a dialogue between the FDNY and Westchester in regards to mutual aid, and it's always evolving and improving, and trying to figure out what's best for all. Interoperability and mutual aid are separate things and are constantly being worked on.
 
nap72 said:
That is the FDNY policy.
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Actually when you sit down and look at it, it is not overkill. Many, many career departments around the country send a chief whenever a rig is dispatched mutual aid. If the FDNY TL is being requested, it is most likely being requested for master stream operations. So there are a number of issues to address. Radio communications, especially on handi talkie channels, radio terminology, mutual aid (receiver) unit identification, and the whole issue of supplying water to the TL. What type of supply line is the host department using? Do they have FDNY fittings and adapters. Do they know the pressures to pump 3.5”. If the scene is cluttered with apparatus and a late arriving FDNY TL (95 footer special called may not be a border company) must be squeezed into the fire scene for positioning - it may very well be that the host agency is using Their supply lines to supply the TL. In that case FDNY adapters will be needed at both ends of the setup (two sets of adapters). Lastly, if an FDNY engine is going to supply the TL, when the operation is done, you want to get packed up and back to your response areas as soon as possible. Who and how many are gonna help repack hose… so send the extra engine company for extra adapters, extra manpower etc makes for quick, swift, and safe operations. And I am sure- I’d bet heavily that this FDNY policy evolved out of issues/problems encountered over many decades. Sending 4 units mutual aid may seem overkill for a small department with 5-10 pieces of apparatus but it is usually nothing for FDNY with over 360 engines and ladders. Think of it as a mutual aid task force.
 
nap72 said:
No one said it can't be done by the FDNY - It is done, just not often.

A (Westchester) union would care because contractually their members are entitled to overtime to man additional units to fight these fires and backfill units.

You also said having the closest units responding is important. How come Mt. Vernon doesn't get dispatched automatically to fires north of E. 241 St? Yonkers FD to Riverdale Ave or Broadway? When both departments would beat in every 2nd due unit and maybe even 1st due units. It's because mutual aid is complex. Seems simple but it's just not that simple.

Borders exist in every single municipality. Cities must protect and serve their citizens first and assist other departments when they can.

Bottom line is there is more to it.
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My question about unions and OT still stands. My question is why would a union care if FDNY is called for mutual aid RATHER then a further away company that is not mutual aid. I am not saying instead of calling in the OT guys. I am saying call the closer dept for mutual aid rather then a farther away one. If mutual aid is being called then the union shouldn't really have any opinion on where it comes from.

Yes I said closest units, and you raise a good point about calling across the border companies that are closer then a company from the "home" department. I feel like that is a caveat to the argument. If it is the same department that has some validity. If calling mutual aid the preference should be given to the closest depts. The chiefs in Nassau, and Westchester, and Jersey should also know that asking for one piece of apparatus doesn't work, they should know the fdny policy about if you ask for one you get "this"

One of the biggest questions in the NTSB inquiry into the LODD deaths in Newark on the ship was why it took so long to call the FDNY, and there was no good answer given that I heard.

I completely understand MV calling New Rochelle or Yonkers for help first, there is merit to calling the depts that have radio capabilities and similar SOP and all that. But when it starts getting farther and farther away like this incident calling the FDNY should be earlier on the list.

That's my opinion. I am not FDNY, or even close to NYC and honestly the region I do live in needs to be better at mutual aid, I understand "there is more to it" but that should be ironed out when its not "go time" through meetings with chiefs and admins.
 
lfdlt31 said:
One of the biggest questions in the NTSB inquiry into the LODD deaths in Newark on the ship was why it took so long to call the FDNY, and there was no good answer given that I heard.
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My personal take on the Newark ship fire was that the department was not "ready" for that kind of confined space fire. They attacked it as they would any structure fire but in a car carrier with hundreds of gas and oil filled sources on rubber and confined to multiple levels of steel decking and very few clear ways get ahead of it they were spitballing at best. Once it really got going and the CO2 dump didnt work it should have been an external operation.

Its frankly amazing the count wasnt higher. Grimaldi is a shit shipping line taking the worst of the worst backhauls out of Port Elizabeth and Howland Hook. They make their money but firefighters and crew pay with their lives.

Oh, and the icing on the cake is that Grimaldi towed that burnt out hunk of crapola to Croatia, rebuilt it and put it back into service.

*Edit* Didnt mean to derail the convo
 
lfdlt31 said:
One of the biggest questions in the NTSB inquiry into the LODD deaths in Newark on the ship was why it took so long to call the FDNY, and there was no good answer given that I heard.
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FFM1938 said:
My personal take on the Newark ship fire was that the department was not "ready" for that kind of confined space fire.
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Maybe it might have been thought that with the USAR Taskforce this could have been handled, but seeing after a while that definitely wasn't going to happen the IC could have thought what department can get here quick, and has experience fighting shipfires? FDNY comes to mind.
 
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