2/17/23 Staten Island 4th Alarm 10-60/10-66 Box 3592

Some big cities get by with 4 Firefighter staffing, having fires commonly in mostly small, Row Houses or small Private Dwellings is the only reason some cities get by with low staffing levels. It never really worked in FDNY. Even with the 2nd due Engine helping the 1s due Engine with the 1st Hoseline it is never as fast getting that first hoseline into operation. "As the first hoseline goes so goes the fire" As the FDNY has said for years, "More lives are saved by a propositioned hoseline than by any other action." As for Ladder/Truck operations no matter what, the searches of all areas needed, just do not get done as soon, with less than the officer and FIVE firefighters. I still believe that the National Fire Protection Association, standard is the officer and minimum 4 firefighters. The officer that is required to assist in a hose stretch or operation or hands on Ladder company work is no longer just an officer but a firefighter who, is distracted from his most important job, to keep his firefighters safe. I know I spent 30 years in some busiest units in the FDNY, including a lot of time during the FDNY "War Years."
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
 
Captain784 said:
Some big cities get by with 4 Firefighter staffing, having fires commonly in mostly small, Row Houses or small Private Dwellings is the only reason some cities get by with low staffing levels. It never really worked in FDNY. Even with the 2nd due Engine helping the 1s due Engine with the 1st Hoseline it is never as fast getting that first hoseline into operation. "As the first hoseline goes so goes the fire" As the FDNY has said for years, "More lives are saved by a propositioned hoseline than by any other action." As for Ladder/Truck operations no matter what, the searches of all areas needed, just do not get done as soon, with less than the officer and FIVE firefighters. I still believe that the National Fire Protection Association, standard is the officer and minimum 4 firefighters. The officer that is required to assist in a hose stretch or operation or hands on Ladder company work is no longer just an officer but a firefighter who, is distracted from his most important job, to keep his firefighters safe. I know I spent 30 years in some busiest units in the FDNY, including a lot of time during the FDNY "War Years."
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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Do you think that with 5 fire fighters on an engine company they should make greater use of 2 1/2 inch attack lines instead of 1 3/4 inch lines ? When did FDNY adopt 1 3/4 inch lines instead of 2 1/2 inch lines ?
 
No 1 3/4 is the way to go in most cases especially in a dwelling regardless of manning .....2 1/2 can get more FFs injured in an interior attack due to tough maneuverability .....up into the early '60s FDNY relied on 2 1/2 almost all the time until the black rubber 1 1/2 started to be used in many busy areas.....when the rapid water scam was perpetrated early '70s the only good thing that came out of that was 1 3/4 hose.....getting back a 5th FF in ALL ENG's would make definite difference in speed of the operation but not in the size of the hose generally stretched.
 
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Most places that run with staffing of “4 firefighters” are including the officer in that count. An officer and 3. That is what NFPA means also 4 firefighters is the total crew on the rig
 
I was told in some localities whose total staffing is 4 that making lieutenant gives him the nozzle.
 
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Standard in my area of Ohio is 4 total per engine. 2 firefighters, a pump operator and an officer.
 
Town I volleyed in once had 1 Driver 1 FF no Officer

Now its 1 Driver 1 Officer 1 FF same as the town I live in
 
AYoung said:
Standard in my area of Ohio is 4 total per engine. 2 firefighters, a pump operator and an officer.
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Central Ohio here, 3 on the engine is pretty standard (Officer, driver, 1 in back). 1st due Medic assists the engine with the line if there's not an immediate need for patient care. A lot of departments outside the city run 3 on their ladders as well.
 
68jk09 said:
No 1 3/4 is the way to go in most cases especially in a dwelling regardless of manning .....2 1/2 can get more FFs injured in an interior attack due to tough maneuverability .....up into the early '60s FDNY relied on 2 1/2 almost all the time until the black rubber 1 1/2 started to be used in many busy areas.....when the rapid water scam was perpetrated early '70s the only good thing that came out of that was 1 3/4 hose.....getting back a 5th FF in ALL ENG's would make definite difference in speed of the operation but not in the size of the hose generally stretched.
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Ther size of the hoseline must be based on a lot of factors. Not all dwellings are the same size, some have open floor plans, some have very heavy fire loading due to have an average of 1,300 LBS of synthetics in the many dwelling units. The FDNY uses the Word KEY "ADULTS" to determine if the use of 1 3/4" may in fact be compatible with fire conditions.
A =Advanced Fire Upon Arrival
D= Defensive Operations
U= Unable to Determine Extent of Size of the Fire Area.
T= Tons of water required and advance fire or fire loading.
S=Standpipe Operations
* Hose Size Must Always Be Compatible with Fire Conditions.
"Flash Over" of a room can and does in as little at 3 Minutes & 17 Seconds in recent fires.
A times one 1 3/4" hoseline cannot stop a fire once flashover has occurred. FDNY is testing the use of 2" hoselines to compensate with the heavy fire loading in today's occupancies including Dwellings.
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 Retired & 30-year FDNY Veteran & 50+ years of Firefighting/
 
t123ken said:
I was told in some localities whose total staffing is 4 that making lieutenant gives him the nozzle.
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Years ago, I met two Brothers who were attending our Downstate Fire Academy. They were from a toown in the Albany area; and they said that was their department's procedure. You were promoted to (Lt.) nozzleman, and got to put the water wherever you wanted to.
 
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