8/20/22 Staten Island 3rd Alarm Alarm Box 4141

[memorymaster]

It says ladder on the outside of 168s quarters by the service road on Staten Island

Yes, it does but no truck was planned. It is just E168 and EMS Station 23.

 

[mack]

Yes, it does but no truck was planned. It is just E168 and EMS Station 23.

Discussion for years about the Rossville-Charleston areas was the need and intent to build a "firehouse" without specific details about units. It was a long run area for 164/84, 151/76 and the 23. At least an engine company would be organized or moved there. The needs for another ladder company and SI BC had also been widespread for a long time. Si West Shore did not have (still doesn't) a truck. The announcement of a combination of EMS station - also needed- with a new firehouse seemed to diminish discussion and demand for a new truck company as the firehouse-EMS station was being built. It was, however, still expected by residents that the firehouse would have a needed engine and truck. The firehouse remained unopened for quite a while after completed until a multiple added pressure. When Engine 168 was established without a new truck company, most residents believed a truck company would follow - like Ladder 87 eventually followed Engine 167. So the Rossville firehouse was built with lettering for a ladder company and room for a ladder company regardless of whatever "plan" and budget existed. As SI grows, it probably will have a truck company - eventually. And as the Chief noted- many firehouses were built with lettering for H&Ls or Squad or unit that was never located there.

 

[mack]

Also, Engine 158's West Shore firehouse in Mariners Harbor has always had Hook & Ladder lettering but never had a truck. When the Engine 154 (now Squad 8) firehouse was built, it was lettered for an eventual or possible ladder company. Also Engine 152, Engine 160, Engine 161 also had or has truck lettering even though the firehouses did not have ladder companies. Ladder 81 eventually moved from Engine 159 in Dongan Hills to South Beach when Ladder 85 was organized in New Dorp.

 

[memorymaster]

EMS moved into the Rossville house in February of 2004. I was on duty the night that we started "business". It was at 2100 hours and the Division Commander Deputy Chief of the 8th Division and the Chief of EMS were there to cut the ribbon, so to speak. E168 went into service in June of 2005.

 

[vbcapt]

It's

It's not about the number of runs or the numbers of fires. It's about adequate fire protection. SI is heading towards half a million population. SI has had only 3 BCs for 90 years. There are no trucks on the West Shore - all single engines. And there are still parts of SI that can take 5 minutes for a 1st due engine or truck to get to - if they are available.

Totally agree. I would also add that the span of control for 3 Battalions is too high....18 Engines & 12 ladders

 

[jlab]

Article states that the fire started as a barbecue fire. Not clear from the article if the couple they interviewed lived in the fire building or an exposure.

Charleston fire victims cling to each other — and hope — as they confront latest tragedy

On Aug. 20, the DiGiovannis were among 15 people displaced by a 3-alarm blaze that recently destroyed homes on Pitney Avenue.

www.silive.com

 

[mack]

Totally agree. I would also add that the span of control for 3 Battalions is too high....18 Engines & 12 ladders

SI BCs frequently operate alone at jobs longer, often do not get to minor jobs and incidents to see units operate, have longer runs and have to wait longer for additional or special units. Help from Brooklyn can require 10 or 15 mile runs. Relocations from busy units from other boroughs makes them unavailable for responses in their own districts. If you add up the round trip travel times for relocating units on SI multiples, you get hours of travel time. SI does not have the same fire resources that many cities and counties of comparable size typically have.

 

[Len90]

I believe the original plan for E-168 was to have a Truck there as well.

Original plan was a full house from what I recall. Construction was funded in 1999 due to south shore housing boom. The house was built and mayor Bloomberg axed the establishment of any fire company and instead only used the house for ems. There was a south shore fire which had an over 6 minute response time and claimed 4 homes in 2005 that sparked major outcry from the citizens and finally led to the forming of E 168. The fire was March 2005 and the fire company was formed and began operations on June 6th 2005 at 0900. Their initial rig was a 2002 Seagrave; ex E204 which was shuttered by Mayor Bloomberg in 2003. They were then assigned a 2006 Seagrave engine ex BOT CTS.

 

[baileyjeff]

Original plan was a full house from what I recall. Construction was funded in 1999 due to south shore housing boom. The house was built and mayor Bloomberg axed the establishment of any fire company and instead only used the house for ems. There was a south shore fire which had an over 6 minute response time and claimed 4 homes in 2005 that sparked major outcry from the citizens and finally led to the forming of E 168. The fire was March 2005 and the fire company was formed and began operations on June 6th 2005 at 0900. Their initial rig was a 2002 Seagrave; ex E204 which was shuttered by Mayor Bloomberg in 2003. They were then assigned a 2006 Seagrave engine ex BOT CTS.

Why was the 2002 rig from 204 taken from 168 and where did it go?

 

[baileyjeff]

Organize Ladder 88 at168s quarters and maybe another truck at 158s quarters.

 

[vbcapt]

SI BCs frequently operate alone at jobs longer, often do not get to minor jobs and incidents to see units operate, have longer runs and have to wait longer for additional or special units. Help from Brooklyn can require 10 or 15 mile runs. Relocations from busy units from other boroughs makes them unavailable for responses in their own districts. If you add up the round trip travel times for relocating units on SI multiples, you get hours of travel time. SI does not have the same fire resources that many cities and counties of comparable size typically have.

Yep.....my Dept. has 21 Engines (Soon to be 22 Engines & 9 Ladders) & 8 Ladders, similar population to SI and we have 5 Battalions

 

[raybrag]

Yep.....my Dept. has 21 Engines (Soon to be 22 Engines & 9 Ladders) & 8 Ladders, similar population to SI and we have 5 Battalions

And traffic to match, too. Right, Deano?

 

[Len90]

Why was the 2002 rig from 204 taken from 168 and where did it go?

Not sure but I think the idea was to start them off with a “new” engine. The 2002 went to the spare pool and they had the 2006 Seagrave which was I think the last J cab until their present day e-one.

 

[Atlas]

Staten Island is the best kept secret of NYC. It is nowhere the problem child of the other four boroughs, but it has the potential to be come a major disaster. Fire houses that are homes to Engine 151 through Engine 158 & Ladder 79 were created to provide protection for the old villages of the island. For those who are not aware of it Engine 154 was originally located a few blocks west of the eastern shore of the island just south of today's Staten Island Ferry Terminal. The unit was disbanded and later established in the Travis section where Squad 8 today calls home.

Back in 1963 when the island lost over 100 homes, Engine 165, 166, 167, & 168 did not exist. After the 1963 fire, FDNY stated in the local newspaper that 12 more fire houses were needed to protect the island. What happened, only 4 new stations were added. Engine 154 was disestablished and their station was sold.

So for years, the island had 17 engines. Engine 163 would respond on either 1st or 2nd alarms to over 95% of the island. There were 8 engines located on the area north of the Staten Island Expressway, leaving the remainder of the island to be protected by 9 engines. Area wise its 1/3 to the north and 2/3 area to the south side of the expressway. The south side has only 1 battalion chief, just something to think about.

Engine 168 was created because of the population explosion causing an increased work load. Over 20 years ago there was an increase of 26.5 % of working incidents on the island. Vehicle traffic also greatly increased. Interstate commercial traffic increased along the SIE. Trucks that can't travel through the Hudson River tunnels are using the SIE & VZ bridge to make deliveries in Manhattan & the four counties of Long Island.

If you look at Engine 165, 166, 167, & 168 they most likely have the largest first & second areas in the city. These areas have to be reduced in size so that means establishing additional fire companies. Yes, there are also other parts of NYC that can use additional help. Are you aware that the NFPA has requirements for fire departments to meet? There has to be a certain number of firefighters on scene within a few minutes. Without additional companies, FDNY will have a hard time meeting this requirement. I have never seen any mention of that topic in any annual report.

Next you need to examine response restrictions. Engine 159 only responds 1, 2, or 3 due on the 1st alarm because of Sat 5. Also Squad 8 had
limited 1st alarm response restrictions. So if an engine is relocated into either of those quarters it's great for the local community, but does not help the remainder of the borough.

So my solution to the Staten Island problem is to create additional companies. Re-establish Engine 154 in Travis & move Squad 8 up to where EMS Station 22 is located on the grounds of the former hospital. Also establish a 4th Battalion at the same location. Currently Staten Island has the correct percentage of 18 engines for 12 trucks. That percentage should be maintained. When three engines are established add two addition ladder companies. Currently SI can support 6 separate responses of 3&2, but they will run out of Battalions. If the need arrases addition units, trucks, can be added where needed like what they did with Engine 275, Ladder 133 was created to combat an increased fatality rate. Are you aware Staten Island also has the highest percentage of tower ladders assigned to a borough?

Yes, Staten Island is different then the rest of New York City.

 

[STAjo]

Staten Island Advance:
On April 20, 1963, also known as Black Saturday, a total of three large brush fires began in Rossville, Tottenville, and Mariners Harbor. In their wake, the fires caused more than $2 million of property damage and left over 500 people homeless.

https://www.silive.com/news/2021/04...fires-in-staten-island-history-in-photos.html

 

[STAjo]

Staten Island Advance:
On April 20, 1963, also known as Black Saturday, a total of three large brush fires began in Rossville, Tottenville, and Mariners Harbor. In their wake, the fires caused more than $2 million of property damage and left over 500 people homeless.

https://www.silive.com/news/2021/04...fires-in-staten-island-history-in-photos.html

Also: https://nycfire.net/forums/threads/black-saturday-april-20-1963-staten-island-brush-fires.15789/

 

[RCL]

I’d say both are equal by jumping on the highway. Oceanic onto the West Shore EXPWY and Richmond onto the Korean War Vet PKWY. Straight shot for both - just don’t think a volunteer company would respond to a fire like this. Maybe I’m wrong and they could or would? I’ve always been curious as to what Richmond engine responds to. I’ve seen them at brush fires assisting and heard them on SI radio at runs here and there mid-island.

Are they allowed to operate inside a structure?

I think Oceanic and Richmond, yearly head to the Nassau County Academy with West Hamilton, Gerritsen and Broad Channel. Id have to go back and look, but they all have training that is fairly close to FDNYs, maybe not in hours, but in the basics. Then the individual departments run their own drills. Sometimes with their first due FDNY companies. Most chiefs and officers in those areas know the volly crews and capabilities and will use them accordingly. They typically spend several nights out there together operating at different scenarios. As far as operating in structures, I know from experience, WHB has been sent in multiple times as a relief engine and more then a few times first due line.

From experience, typically a Vol Engine wont go to a multi alarm fire way outside their area, unless theres a specific reason for it. Or asked. Using this instance as an example, and it can be applied anywhere, if something else happened, they could very well be the only protection for that area for a little bit. When the AA plane came down in the Rockaways, when fire coverage was still thin, BCVFD, WHB and I think Roxbury, BP and PB all sent engines to the fire. But thats more of a 1 off that doesnt happen to often thankfully.

 

[Lebby]

I think Oceanic and Richmond, yearly head to the Nassau County Academy with West Hamilton, Gerritsen and Broad Channel. Id have to go back and look, but they all have training that is fairly close to FDNYs, maybe not in hours, but in the basics. Then the individual departments run their own drills. Sometimes with their first due FDNY companies. Most chiefs and officers in those areas know the volly crews and capabilities and will use them accordingly. They typically spend several nights out there together operating at different scenarios. As far as operating in structures, I know from experience, WHB has been sent in multiple times as a relief engine and more then a few times first due line.

From experience, typically a Vol Engine wont go to a multi alarm fire way outside their area, unless theres a specific reason for it. Or asked. Using this instance as an example, and it can be applied anywhere, if something else happened, they could very well be the only protection for that area for a little bit. When the AA plane came down in the Rockaways, when fire coverage was still thin, BCVFD, WHB and I think Roxbury, BP and PB all sent engines to the fire. But thats more of a 1 off that doesnt happen to often thankfully.

I know the Staten Island volunteer companies have sent thier members for initial training at the Middlesex County Fire Academy in New Jersey. I'm unsure if they still do, but they have in the past.

 

[RCL]

I know the Staten Island volunteer companies have sent thier members for initial training at the Middlesex County Fire Academy in New Jersey. I'm unsure if they still do, but they have in the past.

They might still do. From what I remember, it was a pretty good trip out there from WHB. I want to say it was about an hour or so in an 80s ALF. (Ex eng 277) I went back and looked at the FB pages for WHB and BC and both for the last 10 years or so, go to NCFSA for training yearly, but they go with Edgewater and Gerritsen Beach. It might have something to do with the fallout from Aviation in the Bronx. So it would make sense that Oceanic and Richmond, would go to NJ if it was closer then Bethpage.

 

[vbcapt]

And traffic to match, too. Right, Deano?

you got that right Ray !