Attack lines
- Thread starter Al Capone
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Also note the FDNY limits 1 3/4 to 6 lengths. Most rigs will have 2 beds, each with 6 lengths of 1 3/4 and then the rest of the bed filled with 2 1/2 to the max about 10 lengths Some units have cut back to only 4 lengths followed by the 2 1/2. Giving you around 800' per attack line.
Also standpipe is always 2 1/2.
Also standpipe is always 2 1/2.
In order to reduce friction loss and increase flow, F.D.N.Y. uses 1 3/4" hose that is manufactured specially for the department. The inside diameter of the hose expands to almost 2" when filled with water. F.D.N.Y. has rigid standards that the hose manufacturer must meet. Personnel from the department witness the hose tests at the manufacturer's facility prior to accepting delivery.
B
Bigandy
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I know standard 1 3/4" hose can deliver roughly between 140-200 gpm. Does this specially designed hose allow for more gpm, or just reduce friction loss, so its delivered at a higher pressure?
Bigandy said:
F.D.N.Y. uses a 15/16" smoothbore nozzle on this line and estimates the flow to be approximately 180 GPM at 50 lbs. of nozzle pressure. A larger orifice would flow more. Remember, they use 1 3/4" as an offensive attack line for aggressive interior operations commiserate with fire conditions. The old saying 'big fire, big hose' is still true. F.D.N.Y. still uses 2 1/2" hose with a 1 1/8" smoothbore nozzle for highrise, commercial and whenever the volume of fire requires it. Although it appears that much of our nation's fire service has decided that 1 3/4" hose with a fog nozzle is the answer to all size fires from outside rubbish to fully involved factory buildings, the fact remains that F.D.N.Y.'s method is tried and true. Those who choose the 1 3/4" fog lines for everything they face lose a lot of their battles.
Although it appears that much of our nation's fire service has decided that 1 3/4" hose with a fog nozzle is the answer to all size fires from outside rubbish to fully involved factory buildings, the fact remains that F.D.N.Y.'s method is tried and true. Those who choose the 1 3/4" fog lines for everything they face lose a lot of their battles.
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"69Mets" how true that is. Nobody's Perfect, but I got to tell you that when it comes to fighting fires, if most cities would try to follow the FDNY style of firefighting and tactics, they would save alot more buildings and probadly not work so hard. From the single family ranch houses to the Large Queen Annes, and high rises too. The FDNY has been there and done that. Most don't know, but before any policy, or new tool, or tactic, gets accepted into the FDNY it is tried, and perfected, by the members of various companies before it becomes Official. The members and officers evaluate these tactics and equipment in writing. Only after favorible reports by the members of those companies is it accepted. An example recently is the use of the High Rise Window Blanket and High Rise Nozzles. As "69 Mets" says; "it is tried and true". And for the most part "Fog Nozzles" just don't cut it in New York City. And I really have to respect their opinion, as they probadly do more firefighting than ANYBODY Else in the World. Kind of hard to argue that.
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"69Mets" how true that is. Nobody's Perfect, but I got to tell you that when it comes to fighting fires, if most cities would try to follow the FDNY style of firefighting and tactics, they would save alot more buildings and probadly not work so hard. From the single family ranch houses to the Large Queen Annes, and high rises too. The FDNY has been there and done that. Most don't know, but before any policy, or new tool, or tactic, gets accepted into the FDNY it is tried, and perfected, by the members of various companies before it becomes Official. The members and officers evaluate these tactics and equipment in writing. Only after favorible reports by the members of those companies is it accepted. An example recently is the use of the High Rise Window Blanket and High Rise Nozzles. As "69 Mets" says; "it is tried and true". And for the most part "Fog Nozzles" just don't cut it in New York City. And I really have to respect their opinion, as they probadly do more firefighting than ANYBODY Else in the World. Kind of hard to argue that.
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I agree with the smooth bore concept. I will prefer a smooth bore, regardless of the line size on any operation. When FDNY says lengths, is that 50' or 100' lengths? for what its worth, we use 2-200' preconnects 1 3/4" with a smoothbore 7/8" and a large combination 200 gpm. one 2 1/2" 200' with 1 1/4" smoothbore.
My dept started buying smooth bore nozzles a few years ago,the problem we had was getting the older pump operators to understand was this; low psi, more volume of water without breaking the stream up. We had to put operating pressure tags above the discharge gauges. The idea still gets beat up guys tend to be negative towards smooth bores.
ladder197 said:
Smooth bores are really the way to go for interior structural attack. They provide superior reach, penetration and volume at low nozzle pressure.
Labeling the pump panel coupled with ongoing pump operator training are good steps to take. Two other items that help to provide an excellent stream from a smooth bore nozzle are a mini stream shaper and a long main stream tip ... like the old brass smooth bores that F.D.N.Y. used years ago (some F.D.N.Y. Engine Co.'s still have a long brass tip on their shutoff.
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Generally, we have (2) 200 ft 1 3/4 preconnects, (1) fog, (1) 15/16 smoothie.
(2) 200 ft. 2 1/2 preconnects, (1) fog (very big & heavy), (1) smoothie with stack tips (very big & heavy).
A dead load of 3", 600 ft, our company keeps a water thief on the end.
Lastly (and don't ask me why we have this) (1) 400 ft. 1 3/4 preconnect off the rear with a fog (very big & heavy)
(2) 200 ft. 2 1/2 preconnects, (1) fog (very big & heavy), (1) smoothie with stack tips (very big & heavy).
A dead load of 3", 600 ft, our company keeps a water thief on the end.
Lastly (and don't ask me why we have this) (1) 400 ft. 1 3/4 preconnect off the rear with a fog (very big & heavy)
vbcapt said:
Even though there are still nozzles out there in some departments that are 'big and heavy' ... we've come a long way from brass couplings on our hose and brass nozzles. F.D.N.Y. uses lightweight smooth bore nozzles on their 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" hand lines.
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Yes, some of us have been trying to get our Dept. to purchase the much lighter weight nozzles. However, we have an old, hard to break culture of "bigger is better" when it comes to apparatus & equipment, all of this with our stellar staffing of 2 Firefighters & 1 Officer. Tommy B. saw it first hand when he stopped by for a visit and saw our rigs.
Yes, what a difference those lighter weight couplings and nozzles make. I feel sorry for any dept that still has to deal with that, like Virginia Beach. I can relate to the Officer and two firefighters on a rig. Even more reason for the lighter weight equipment.
I may be wrong on this, but I think the FDNY policy is to have the First "and" Second due Engine Cos assigned, to get the first line in operation. It is the Third and Fourth due Engines that stretch's a Second line if needed. Certainly, that's a policy that maybe should be looked at by depts still using those heavy nozzles and couplings. Espically with three man Engine Companies. Is it more time consuming, "Yes". But if the city is so concerned, then they should look at the lighter weight hose couplings. This is not something New. It's been around for a very long time. Maybe the public should be made aware of this too.
"vbcapt" I give you and the dept credit for still dealing with this out dated system. I sure hope there could somehow be some progress on this very soon. Or for any other dept that still deals with that.
I may be wrong on this, but I think the FDNY policy is to have the First "and" Second due Engine Cos assigned, to get the first line in operation. It is the Third and Fourth due Engines that stretch's a Second line if needed. Certainly, that's a policy that maybe should be looked at by depts still using those heavy nozzles and couplings. Espically with three man Engine Companies. Is it more time consuming, "Yes". But if the city is so concerned, then they should look at the lighter weight hose couplings. This is not something New. It's been around for a very long time. Maybe the public should be made aware of this too.
"vbcapt" I give you and the dept credit for still dealing with this out dated system. I sure hope there could somehow be some progress on this very soon. Or for any other dept that still deals with that.