- Joined
- Nov 6, 2009
- Messages
- 359
the 1976 Mack assigned to Rescue 5 also had a white roof (NFD2004 picture)
My younger Buff years
- Thread starter nfd2004
- Start date
mercurygrandmarquis1 said:the 1976 Mack assigned to Rescue 5 also had a white roof (NFD2004 picture)
Thanks Zack very much for posting that picture of Rescue 5 for me. It was the first Rescue to have white over red colors. But had been in service, "Red ONLY", prior to going into service for the newly formed Rescue 5.
R1SmokeEater said:Squad-1, 1982 ALF #AP-8201 (Bill D)68jk09 said:
"Staten Island also had the first Mack Tower Ladder painted with the new white roof. When that new Ladder Co 85 went into service with the newer color scheme, I also made the trip to Staten Island to get that rig shot"
TL-85 1981 Mack/Baker #MT-8107
Thanks Jamie (r1smokeeater) for posting these two photos.
I am new to posting but have spent lots of time reading and enjoying all of your terrific stories and information about "The War Years".
My question goes back to some discussion you were having about second sections. "Guitarman" posted a copy of a run card - Box 2255, that showed both sections of E41 responding, one of them replacing E83 on the 1st alarm. Was E41 on every run card that way? Related to this, a retired FF from L31 told me that when E85 joined 82 & 31 and later when it moved to Boston Road that it was assigned some of 82's boxes to run to 1st due. Both of these examples seem to suggest that these units ran together. Of course, it was before any "adaptive response" was initiated.
My question goes back to some discussion you were having about second sections. "Guitarman" posted a copy of a run card - Box 2255, that showed both sections of E41 responding, one of them replacing E83 on the 1st alarm. Was E41 on every run card that way? Related to this, a retired FF from L31 told me that when E85 joined 82 & 31 and later when it moved to Boston Road that it was assigned some of 82's boxes to run to 1st due. Both of these examples seem to suggest that these units ran together. Of course, it was before any "adaptive response" was initiated.
I hate to say it but FDNY kept changing the response policy for the 2nd engine co in quarters. In the case of 82 it was 85, & in other cases it was the second sections of the companies. Some bosses felt that th second section was there to reduce the work load on the other engine who the shared quarters with, others felt that there were there for the entire area.
82 & 85 were an interesting pair while in the same quarters. For a while they responded together 1st & 2nd due, or even third due. Other times one was held back in quarters for another box, & for a while they both were assigned to different boxes & would not respond together.
For a while, when The Bronx had three Squads ( # 1, #2, & #5) these units would rotate daily between different companies to try to give them a break.
Engines 512 (Engine 45) & Engine 513 (Engine 94), Ladder 712 (Ladder 31) were all used to give a break to the companies who's quartered that they responded from. After their tour of duty, they returned to their storage quarters & the crew when home until the next afternoon.
FDNY never got the money to make the additional TAC units as they had first planned for.
82 & 85 were an interesting pair while in the same quarters. For a while they responded together 1st & 2nd due, or even third due. Other times one was held back in quarters for another box, & for a while they both were assigned to different boxes & would not respond together.
For a while, when The Bronx had three Squads ( # 1, #2, & #5) these units would rotate daily between different companies to try to give them a break.
Engines 512 (Engine 45) & Engine 513 (Engine 94), Ladder 712 (Ladder 31) were all used to give a break to the companies who's quartered that they responded from. After their tour of duty, they returned to their storage quarters & the crew when home until the next afternoon.
FDNY never got the money to make the additional TAC units as they had first planned for.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2007
- Messages
- 5,392
I have a bunch of "War Years" era assignment cards that E82 had previously responded to on the 2nd thru 5th alarm. During the E82/E85 in the same house period E82 was removed from the cards and replaced with E85. In addition no relocator was sent to E85 because E82 remained in the house. Before this E82 didn't relocate and was always covered usually by E41, 42, 50, 83, 88 or 90. In the case of E41, they used to relocate to E36, 58, 68, 73, 82, 91 & 92 and continued to do so when they were a double co.Bronx72 said:
Frank, I want to say that Engine 85 had their own response district more towards Boston Rd and 169 St where the Tin House was later built. And if I remember, if Engine 82 had a second or third section, it wasn't a permanent thing. The second and third sections were brought in from other parts of the city, and then also joined in on Engine 82s response area. When those companies came in, they really Weren"t ACTING Eng 82, they BECAME Engine 82 (Second and Third Sections, Eng 82-2, Eng 82-3) within that response area. Each just took turns responding to the numerous fires within that area. Then when things slowed down, those companies returned to their own home.fdce54 said:
And "Bronx72", glad you joined us. In those busy days just about anything went on. There was no trigger that I could say (speaking only as a Buff now) involving second alarms and relocated companies. It was just so busy, they were happy to get whoever they could. And actually going to a Second Alarm, really wasn't too popular, because where do we find those companies from. A dispatcher would often say; "All right, we'll TRY to get you those Second Alarm Companies" It wasn't an easy thing to do in those days.
My father worked in E246/L169/E327 early in his career when they were located in a large 3-bay Sheepshead Bay firehouse on E 23 St. E327 actually started as the 2nd section of E246 in the early days of the department. Both engines usually responded on the same boxes, even though I believe E246 was usually listed first on the response cards. When the box location was to the right of the firehouse, E246 usually exited first and took "1st due status". When the box was to the left (which was the door the large Ahrens Fox was located), E327 responded in the lead. They operated this way even though E23 St became a dead end when the Belt Parkway was completed and they always had to turn right. E327 was disbanded by Bloomberg (not really) in 1960 when E246/L169 moved to a new firehouse on E11 St. I think E327 was originally going to get a new firehouse but that did not happen.
When battalions ran with 2 sections in the early war years, they usually rotated responses. In 1966, Bn 44 (2nd sect) was credited with 4605 runs, Bn 44 (1st sect) had 4590 runs. 9195 total runs for the Bn., if combined. The run totals reflect the 50-50 split. Bn 44 (2nd sect) became Bn 58.
FDNY had a long history of 2 section companies due to workload or distance from nearby firehouses. I guess there has been different rules about counting runs/workers at different times.
By the way, E327 looked like one of these 1939 NY Worlds Fair Fire Dept (members detailed from FDNY) pumpers:
When battalions ran with 2 sections in the early war years, they usually rotated responses. In 1966, Bn 44 (2nd sect) was credited with 4605 runs, Bn 44 (1st sect) had 4590 runs. 9195 total runs for the Bn., if combined. The run totals reflect the 50-50 split. Bn 44 (2nd sect) became Bn 58.
FDNY had a long history of 2 section companies due to workload or distance from nearby firehouses. I guess there has been different rules about counting runs/workers at different times.
By the way, E327 looked like one of these 1939 NY Worlds Fair Fire Dept (members detailed from FDNY) pumpers:
What you have to remember that in fire houses where there was a full time double section it showed on the assignment cards. If you look back in history of Manhattan you might see the same company relocating & on a higher alarm the other section might have responded to the incident. At this point, another company might have been relocated into that empty fire house. Manhattan in the old days was also known for double or triple relocations. Example Company B relocates to company E. Company E relocated to company K & company K goes to company S. The thinking was that this would save time to get a unit in service at company S.
FDNY relocations over the years was also preplanned & showed on the assignment cards. These moves were automatic. Then during the busy years that policy was stopped & companies were relocated at the direction of the borough dispatchers. It took several years for the relocations to disappear off of the assignment cards, so one would think that the policy was still in effect if you were not in the department. The dispatchers would also relocate companies to fill open areas based on what today is know as response neighbors. Today the computer would automatically suggest a unit to relocate. This suggestion can be over rode by the dispatcher. Yesterday, the dispatcher would use a company that had all, or most of the associates in service. When the double sections were in service, some times it was better to use one of these companies instead of emptying a fire house. Each borough & each dispatcher had their own ideas on this subject.
Now with 82 & 85 being in the same quarters, on Friday & Saturday nights additional units were moved into their quarters from Manhattan, or Queens. Sometimes Brooklyn sent additional units. I remember Staten Is units coming into the South Bronx on several occasions, but the Bronx was really burning those nights. They never had full time second sections like Rockaway, or Coney Island did.
FDNY relocations over the years was also preplanned & showed on the assignment cards. These moves were automatic. Then during the busy years that policy was stopped & companies were relocated at the direction of the borough dispatchers. It took several years for the relocations to disappear off of the assignment cards, so one would think that the policy was still in effect if you were not in the department. The dispatchers would also relocate companies to fill open areas based on what today is know as response neighbors. Today the computer would automatically suggest a unit to relocate. This suggestion can be over rode by the dispatcher. Yesterday, the dispatcher would use a company that had all, or most of the associates in service. When the double sections were in service, some times it was better to use one of these companies instead of emptying a fire house. Each borough & each dispatcher had their own ideas on this subject.
Now with 82 & 85 being in the same quarters, on Friday & Saturday nights additional units were moved into their quarters from Manhattan, or Queens. Sometimes Brooklyn sent additional units. I remember Staten Is units coming into the South Bronx on several occasions, but the Bronx was really burning those nights. They never had full time second sections like Rockaway, or Coney Island did.
Atlas said:
Thanks "mack" and "Atlas" for helping to clear things up. The last sentence above explains why SOMETIMES you would hear Second Sections for various companies. Sometimes you would NOT. Of course there were some companies that had Second sections all the time. Like Engine 41-1 and Engine 41-2, or Ladder 17-1 and Ladder 17-2. The rest would be companies brought in from various parts of the City during a very high activity time. Fridays and Saturday Nights of course were always a busy time. Just chasing the pull boxes alone, not counting any fires, could keep three sections running all night long. I'd see three Engine Cos and maybe another Truck Co running from the quarters of Engine 82, in ADDITION to E 85, Lad 31, and TCU 712. Very seldom were they all at the firehouse together on Intervale Ave. (Five Engines, 3 Ladders, and a Chief all on the run chasing calls in just a few square blocks). When they were parked on Intervale Ave, it looked like "Red Square". And Brooklyn, Harlem, and the Lower East Side, was also catching its share too.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2007
- Messages
- 5,392
E60/L17/BC14 house was a "red square with sometimes 2 lines of apparatus staged on 143rd between Alexander & Willis to act as 2nd, 3rd & 4th sections.
If you were to look at Bronx history, the double up companies (second seconds) were Engine 41 & 50. Engine 46-2 was transfered over to Engine 88. Engine 88-2 became Engine 72.
Double up Ladders were 17 & 27. Ladder 27-2 became Ladder 58.
TCU 712 became L-59
Engine 41-2 was replaced by Squad 5
Squad 1 moved to the Bronx @ Ladder 58 quarters. (Old quarters of Eng 46 & Lad 27 on East 176 St.) Moved over to Eng 45.
Engine 46 & Ladder 27 with Batt 56 moved to the new station (their current quarters).
Battalions: 3 was at E-82, & was assigned a double section which became Batt 27. BC 27 stayed at 82 & BC 3 moved to E94. BC 27 is now at Eng 79.
Battalion 14 also had a 2nd section which became Batt 26. Batt 18's secion section became Batt 56. Also there was a police if they had a spare BC in the city at night, he became batt 18-2 for a while. However Batt 55 was never a double section of any BC that I can remember.
Years back Eng 70's second section on weekends was Engine 76-2 from Manhattan.
Double up Ladders were 17 & 27. Ladder 27-2 became Ladder 58.
TCU 712 became L-59
Engine 41-2 was replaced by Squad 5
Squad 1 moved to the Bronx @ Ladder 58 quarters. (Old quarters of Eng 46 & Lad 27 on East 176 St.) Moved over to Eng 45.
Engine 46 & Ladder 27 with Batt 56 moved to the new station (their current quarters).
Battalions: 3 was at E-82, & was assigned a double section which became Batt 27. BC 27 stayed at 82 & BC 3 moved to E94. BC 27 is now at Eng 79.
Battalion 14 also had a 2nd section which became Batt 26. Batt 18's secion section became Batt 56. Also there was a police if they had a spare BC in the city at night, he became batt 18-2 for a while. However Batt 55 was never a double section of any BC that I can remember.
Years back Eng 70's second section on weekends was Engine 76-2 from Manhattan.
Thanks "nfd2004" for the welcome and to all of you for making "The War Years" come alive (again). I can almost smell the smoke.
It sure seems like the situation was so fluid that the run cards and policies were just thrown out the window and the dispatchers did what they could. It's a remarkable thought about all those units lining up like a taxi stand at Grand Central.
E88 had 5700 runs in 1968, 5618 in 1969 (E88-2 joined them on 10/15), and 5975 in 1970. E88-2 had 5873 runs in 1970. So, basically, E88 had about the same number of runs over the 4 year period even with E88-2 helping out. Does that mean that they ran together and each was credited? "Mmatty" and others suggest that the units rotated. Then, in 1972 E88 had 6634 runs and E88-2 had 6633!
Bear with me: I'm a numbers guy, but this doesn't all make sense.
It sure seems like the situation was so fluid that the run cards and policies were just thrown out the window and the dispatchers did what they could. It's a remarkable thought about all those units lining up like a taxi stand at Grand Central.
E88 had 5700 runs in 1968, 5618 in 1969 (E88-2 joined them on 10/15), and 5975 in 1970. E88-2 had 5873 runs in 1970. So, basically, E88 had about the same number of runs over the 4 year period even with E88-2 helping out. Does that mean that they ran together and each was credited? "Mmatty" and others suggest that the units rotated. Then, in 1972 E88 had 6634 runs and E88-2 had 6633!
Bear with me: I'm a numbers guy, but this doesn't all make sense.
Your figures most likely are correct. But what you have to look at also is the runs made by their response neighbors. In this case, Engine 45, 46, & 48. If you have the time, pick a five year period. See who was in service in the area in those fire houses during those years. It might be hard to find out what the response policy was back then, but it would interesting to see what you find.
Also check Eng 42, 79, & 90. I know that 88 never ran with 75 on the box but they did with the three previous mentioned units. But remember that Sq. 1 & TAC 512 were also in their area during some of those years. Then you just might find out Where's The Fire? Eng 88's work has aways been to the south of their quarters. So also between them & 48, but mostly toward 45 & 46 quarters.
Yes, on some boxes both units went, on others only one unit responded. This plan help cut down on the running of some nearby companies. Also take into consideration that response levels were different. Three engines on the box & also the second alarm, not four like today. If 88 was third due on the box, the second section did not respond on the second alarm unless special called. this would keep a company in the area & reduce needed relocations. In some cases, relocations were started on receipt of the old radio signal 10-30. Rescue 3 was on the third alarm in some battalions back then if I remember correctly.
Something else to take into consideration is FDNY's police about giving credit for runs to relocating units. For a good number of years, the credit for a run & also a worker went to the unit who quarters a company responded from. Example Engine 88 was relocated to City Island & had two runs during their stay there. The credit years ago went to Eng 70 & not 88. I think that has since changed to where now 88 would get the credit.
Also check Eng 42, 79, & 90. I know that 88 never ran with 75 on the box but they did with the three previous mentioned units. But remember that Sq. 1 & TAC 512 were also in their area during some of those years. Then you just might find out Where's The Fire? Eng 88's work has aways been to the south of their quarters. So also between them & 48, but mostly toward 45 & 46 quarters.
Yes, on some boxes both units went, on others only one unit responded. This plan help cut down on the running of some nearby companies. Also take into consideration that response levels were different. Three engines on the box & also the second alarm, not four like today. If 88 was third due on the box, the second section did not respond on the second alarm unless special called. this would keep a company in the area & reduce needed relocations. In some cases, relocations were started on receipt of the old radio signal 10-30. Rescue 3 was on the third alarm in some battalions back then if I remember correctly.
Something else to take into consideration is FDNY's police about giving credit for runs to relocating units. For a good number of years, the credit for a run & also a worker went to the unit who quarters a company responded from. Example Engine 88 was relocated to City Island & had two runs during their stay there. The credit years ago went to Eng 70 & not 88. I think that has since changed to where now 88 would get the credit.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3,463
I find FDNY relocation runs interesting. In Boston, if E34 relocated to E33, well any responses would be credited to E34. In Chicago if L59 relocates to L61 all runs are the runs of L59. I am not making fun of the policy, just why? The ACTUAL company did the run, not the HOUSE. ???
Good info, Atlas.
Minor point, 88 and 75 have traditonally run together, 2d or 3d due, on a few boxes below Fordham Rd. Park and 185th and 188th, Webster and 184th and 188th, Marion and 189th, Tiebout and 184th, Third and 189th, maybe a couple more. Most the same today as I track it.
Fordham Rd was generally the cutoff for 79 coming south. 183d the cutoff for 46 coming north along Park or Webster. 42 ran almost all the way to 189th St but was limited by access east from the Concourse.
Minor point, 88 and 75 have traditonally run together, 2d or 3d due, on a few boxes below Fordham Rd. Park and 185th and 188th, Webster and 184th and 188th, Marion and 189th, Tiebout and 184th, Third and 189th, maybe a couple more. Most the same today as I track it.
Fordham Rd was generally the cutoff for 79 coming south. 183d the cutoff for 46 coming north along Park or Webster. 42 ran almost all the way to 189th St but was limited by access east from the Concourse.