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When and what were the last open cab Apparatus and when were they retired? In contrast What were the first closed cab apparatus?
Open Cabs
- Thread starter mercurygrandmarquis1
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Speaking about FDNY rigs....there were some closed cab Officer & Chauffer only ENG rigs back in the '40s i believe ...i am sure some others on here will have more exact data......as far as FDNY Ladder apparatus the open cabs were considered "neccesary" to be able to properly spot the exact position of the turntable......this was the thinking prior to the early '60s......all the old timers around then subscribded to this idea.....however when people made it a common practice to show thier appreciation by throwing objects from above then the thinking was forcibly changed.....around '65 LAD*26 was one of the first to design & build a cover over their open cab themselves......it however had a hinged section so that the portion over the Off. & Chauf. could be flipped back as the Unit pulled up to a Fire.......when the Job began to retrofit all the open cab LADs shortly thereafter they omitted the hinged flap.......everybody learned to live with a covered cab.....one of the teachings was to line up a ground level landmark below your target......such as a stoop or something while approaching then align your turntable with it.....the first retrofitted E & Ts had plywood covered cabs, jump seats & Tillers ....as well as the backstep on ENGs.......the retrofitted rigs originally were in the busier areas were civil unrest was more prevalent.....soon after all rigs were retrofitted w/plywood covering......the 1st FDNY purchased metal closed cab LADs were the '68 Amer La France's which still had a plywood Tiller cover...the '70 Rearmount Aerials were completely closed in as were the '74 Seagrave Tillers.....no open cab LADs were purchased after that.......i am not positive but i believe the '58 Mack ENGs were the early covered cab ENGs (aside from a few in the '40s)...of course in later years the entire cab & riding area was covered on all ENGs from the factory...i do not know when the last open cab (uncovered) was Officially placed out of service....i remember in the early '70s if a ghetto Unit needed a spare & only uncovered spare wooden aerials were available then we had to take the spare to a slow area & exchange rigs w/ a slow Co. to get a covered rig w/ a Metal Aerial for our area until our regular rig was repaired.
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Chief jk always has good info, but . . .
The 1939 New York World's Fair bought 3 1938 Ahrens-Fox closed cab piston pumpers which were transferred to FDNY after the fair. Here's one of them:
also see Jack Calderone's blurb on these here: http://nyfd.com/calderoneA/foxes2.html
The World's Fair also had some closed cab Ahrens-Fox hose wagons (with a normal style cab instead of the pump forward style of the piston pumpers) that I think (but don't quote me) were also transferred to FDNY.
FDNY also bought several 1939 closed-cab Mack L pumpers like this one:
again, more from Jack Calderone here: http://nyfd.com/calderoneA/mack2.html
They also bought some 1938 closed cab Ward LaFrance pumpers:
Of course, there was also what many people consider to be the handsomest rig that Res1cue ever ran with . . . their 1939 Ward Lafrance:
If I'm not mistaken, these were the first closed-cab apparatus (other than special purpose vehicles) that FDNY bought.
As for the last open cabs . . . probably some early Mack C TDAs, although they bought open cab ALF & Seagrave TDAs in 1962 & 1963.
Some of the 1st modern era closed cab pumpers were bought in 1958 . . . Mack C's:
and 1960 Ward LaFrance Firebrands:
The 1939 New York World's Fair bought 3 1938 Ahrens-Fox closed cab piston pumpers which were transferred to FDNY after the fair. Here's one of them:
also see Jack Calderone's blurb on these here: http://nyfd.com/calderoneA/foxes2.html
The World's Fair also had some closed cab Ahrens-Fox hose wagons (with a normal style cab instead of the pump forward style of the piston pumpers) that I think (but don't quote me) were also transferred to FDNY.
FDNY also bought several 1939 closed-cab Mack L pumpers like this one:
again, more from Jack Calderone here: http://nyfd.com/calderoneA/mack2.html
They also bought some 1938 closed cab Ward LaFrance pumpers:
Of course, there was also what many people consider to be the handsomest rig that Res1cue ever ran with . . . their 1939 Ward Lafrance:
If I'm not mistaken, these were the first closed-cab apparatus (other than special purpose vehicles) that FDNY bought.
As for the last open cabs . . . probably some early Mack C TDAs, although they bought open cab ALF & Seagrave TDAs in 1962 & 1963.
Some of the 1st modern era closed cab pumpers were bought in 1958 . . . Mack C's:
and 1960 Ward LaFrance Firebrands:
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Very good post by Chief JK regarding companies in the ghettos or "war zones". Around 1966 there were some apparatus swaps done so companies in the "war zones" could have "protected" rigs. Some exchanges I recall were: E6(62Mack C) with E15(54Mack L), E44(58Mack) with E47(51WLF), E37(52WLF) with E81(58Mack), E75(58Mack) with E80(53WLF), E95(59Mack) with E93(52WLF), E215(58Mack) with E221(53WLF), E248(59Mack) with E244(51WLF), E277(?) with E287(58Mack), E214(52WLF with E289(62Mack). There were also new companies organized in the "war zones" that got "protected" rigs from other companies like E232 starting out with E65's 1965 Mack C and E85 getting E153's 1959 Mack C. I remember L128 giving up their '56ALF for a '55FWD so L103(2) could start life out with a metal aerial. 
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E222 got that Ahrens-Fox in photo above in a swap with E214 when E214 moved from Herkimer St. to L111's "tight" firehouse on Halsey St. in 1948 and wound up with E222's older 1931 ALF700gpm rig.
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E207's rig shown in the color photo above was destroyed on 3/07/64 by a wall collapse.
Interesting post Chief 'JK". It should also be mentioned that F.D.N.Y. Tower Ladders were not completely enclosed until the 1991 Mack / Baker / Saulsbury's were purchased. Prior to that, two members always rode in uncovered riding positions on Tower Ladder apparatus..
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If the question just applies for the FDNY, then the previous posts are more than I could say. If the question was in general, however, I believe the last open-cab American LaFrance was a 1982 pumper delivered to Monroeville, PA, then on to the United Volunteer Fire & Rescue in Wall, PA as Engine 287. I believe there are pictures at www.fdnytrucks.com
Thanks for all those stories and pictures of open cabs and plywood roofs. I remember the plywood roofs as I was just getting involved with the FDNY. I didn't know that it could flip over though for visability.
When I first strated buffing after my rides with Rescue 2, the first place I hung out was in the area of Engine 58 and Ladder 26. That's when they had gotten that enclosed cab American LaFrance. Of course there were no Tower Ladders and Rearmounts then. The other ladder companies (all tillers) had the plywood roofs. I sure wish I had taken pictures then. But cameras weren't what they are today (digital, needed proper film, maybe a special flash for darker areas etc). But the pictures we have here are really special. Thanks for posting them.
And Thanks for the interesting readng about the open cabs.
When I first strated buffing after my rides with Rescue 2, the first place I hung out was in the area of Engine 58 and Ladder 26. That's when they had gotten that enclosed cab American LaFrance. Of course there were no Tower Ladders and Rearmounts then. The other ladder companies (all tillers) had the plywood roofs. I sure wish I had taken pictures then. But cameras weren't what they are today (digital, needed proper film, maybe a special flash for darker areas etc). But the pictures we have here are really special. Thanks for posting them.
And Thanks for the interesting readng about the open cabs.
The last open cab FDNY pumpers were the 25 Mack L model 1000 gpm high-pressure pumpers of 1953-1954, all of which were originally assigned to the 25 engine companies located in the Manhattan high-pressure area (from 34th Street south). The only one north of 34th Street that received one originally was Engine 26 on West 37th Street. Most were reassigned later in their careers. Department fleet records carried them as 1954s. FDNY also received 25 Ward La France open cab CD 750 gpm pumpers in early 1954 that were lettered for CD 41 through CD 65. They were purchased with matching US government funds. One of these (CD44) later was assigned as the regular apparatus of the second section of Engine 46.
The first closed cab pumpers were the 19 Mack type 21 1000 gpm pumpers of 1937. Also delivered in 1937 were 5 closed cab Ward LaFrance hose wagons, the first hose wagons with closed cabs. The last open cab hose wagons were the 6 Walter hose wagons of 1936.
The last open cab aerials were the 7 Seagrave 100 foot tillers of 1963. The first closed cab aerials were the 2 Mack C models of 1961 that were equipped with 146 foot Magirus aerials. Both were later retrofitted with 100 foot Grove aerials. The first closed cab tillers were the 12 American LaFrance 100 footers of 1968. During the "war years" from 1967 on, most of the open cab pumpers and tillered aerials were retrofitted with plywood cabs.
The last open cab rescues were the 2 Mack model APs of 1931, both of which were later enclosed. The first enclosed rescue to be delivered as such, was the huge 1939 Ward LaFrance assigned to Rescue 1.
The first closed cab pumpers were the 19 Mack type 21 1000 gpm pumpers of 1937. Also delivered in 1937 were 5 closed cab Ward LaFrance hose wagons, the first hose wagons with closed cabs. The last open cab hose wagons were the 6 Walter hose wagons of 1936.
The last open cab aerials were the 7 Seagrave 100 foot tillers of 1963. The first closed cab aerials were the 2 Mack C models of 1961 that were equipped with 146 foot Magirus aerials. Both were later retrofitted with 100 foot Grove aerials. The first closed cab tillers were the 12 American LaFrance 100 footers of 1968. During the "war years" from 1967 on, most of the open cab pumpers and tillered aerials were retrofitted with plywood cabs.
The last open cab rescues were the 2 Mack model APs of 1931, both of which were later enclosed. The first enclosed rescue to be delivered as such, was the huge 1939 Ward LaFrance assigned to Rescue 1.
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Pictures of some of the last open cab TDAs (Mack C & Seagrave), along with the Ward LaFrance Firebrand can be found here:
http://www.pbase.com/dickh/brooklyn
I tried to insert them in my post above, but kept getting that dreaded empty link.
http://www.pbase.com/dickh/brooklyn
I tried to insert them in my post above, but kept getting that dreaded empty link.
I was riding with E 248 when we had to give up our Mack to E 244 and we got their WLF. Several years later, after Coney Island had burned down and E 244 was disbanded, our Captain worked long and hard to get our Mack back. He was successful and we had the Mack until it was replaced by (I believe) a 1970 Mack.
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In the "Cute neighborhood kids" photo is L120's Seagrave tiller that was customized to be "doorless".raybrag said:
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Excellent photos......some comments.....photo #3 1st ENG out is 232 not 230....car on apron is one section of BN*44 the other section is inside...........photo #6 looks like it is on Christopher Av or Sackman St. South of Livonia Av (El Structure)...this is from the position of the projects in the background & the type of bldgs........LAD*120 rode w/out doors on the Seagrave pictured however when they got their '68 ALF w/a closed cab & removed the doors on that rig the Shops balked & made them put them back on...............photo # 10 is 11 Scholes St off Union Av a few blocks from their present qtrs on Union Av w/108 & the 35......the old house is still there..................photo # 11 is 216s '60 Ward LaFrance Firebrand the motor was inbetween the Chauf & Off...the portion behind them under the cab overhang was a bench seat all the way across as opposed to 2 individual jump seats....this Rig was later handed down to ENG*331..the Rig on the right in this photo is Fire Patrol 3 .
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One of, if not, the fugliest pieces of cra..., oops I mean apparatus ever made (JMHO)fdce54 said:
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69METS in regard to your reply #8 above.......you are right i completely failed to acknowledge any Tower Ladder Rigs....they were not left out by design i just was not thinking about them....Thanks for adding them.....but then again since you know me .....you know my true feelings about them