Possible war years repeating itself.

[10-75K]

It seems like the politicians for NYC are setting up the city for repeat of the war years. people watching the news and see the crisis FDNY is facing and owners of property that are struggling could take this opportunity to sell their building to the insurance company.
Could this possible it happened once before the city is facing a crisis similar to the 70s perhaps worse.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Not likely, although to your point the FDNY is going through a crisis, that is whats happening. The War Years had many moving parts from corrupt landlords, corrupt politicians, corrupt insurance agencies, chief vs firefighter union, city vs firefighter union, old delapidated apparatus, general population shift, rampant arson and many bad policies to name a few.

 

[GeoC]

Not likely, although to your point the FDNY is going through a crisis, that is whats happening. The War Years had many moving parts from corrupt landlords, corrupt politicians, corrupt insurance agencies, chief vs firefighter union, city vs firefighter union, old delapidated apparatus, general population shift, rampant arson and many bad policies to name a few.

Besides dilapidated apparatus and maybe Chief vs Union what’s changed?

 

[tommyhal&oat]

Think the city will never see anything like the war years and the 70’s again.

 

[IRISH]

I was only thinking this earlier this morning. With companies closing or OOS due to cover other companies are going to see a rise in work especially coming into the winter season.

Don't think it will get anywhere near "war years" work loads.

I will admit I was expecting it to be alot worse in terms of houses closed / companies OOS going off what I'd seen on social media

Please God the issue is resolved very soon as you can be sure the bean counters are watching very closely and I'd fear some companies may not make it back

 

[entropychaser]

If you want crazy fire activity, nothing beats a good sanitation strike.

 

[mack]

FDNY's "War Years" ran from the late 1960s through the 1970s (and maybe 1980s) depending upon how you define the period of tremendous fire activity in many parts of NYC (S Bronx, Harlem, Brownsville, ENY, LES, Williamsburg, Bed-Sty, etc). It was experienced in many, or even most, parts of the city. Companies had 4000 runs a year in many parts of the city and did not make lists acknowledging the busiest units. 20 runs, 4 or 5 fires, no time for meals, back-to-back-to-back runs - all were common experiences.

As Johnny Gage noted, there were many causes but it seemed to be triggered in NYC, and many other cities, by a period of civil unrest characterized by large scale riots, lawlessness, violence and arson. The era saw not only countless fires but also endless false alarms and emergency responses. Note the R&Ws for War Years periods below which were primarily company responses for fires - not EMS runs (although there were many shootings, fights and muggings that FDNY responded to). This was a firefighting era that most likely will never be repeated - a period of low budgets, layoffs, company interchanges, 2nd sections, Adaptive Response, Discretionary Response Boxes, Red Caps, Tin House firehouses, extra divisions and battalions, frequent attacks on FFs, Dispatcher 3rd and 4th Alarms, etc - which impacted most neighborhoods. Interesting enough, it was not even labeled "The War Years" until years of relentless fires left neighborhoods empty and lots filled with rubble, like bombed out World War II cities in Europe. As said before, it was the best of times and the worst of time.

 

[GeoC]

The big difference I see compared to the War Years is the quality of buildings. Back in the 60 / 70’s we were putting fires out in older mostly abandoned neighborhoods. Gentrification was rampant by the City that gave up on people living there. Banks and Real Estate concerns saw the value in these throw away buildings. In return blocks burned down either for profit or amusement,
Now we have the owner who can’t collect rents and the value in Insurance claims or development of new building. Good opportunity for this new enterprise!

 

[jtsjc1]

There's also cameras everywhere so anyone going in and out of vacant buildings will be picked up by a camera or a cellphone user.

 

[nfd2004]

In this discussion there is talk of "The FDNY War Years coming back".

Perhaps for those who might not have been around back then, those of us that were; either members of the FDNY, or buffs back then, might be able to help try to answer that question.

Let's begin with a video that I believe can be found in "My Younger Buff Years" in the history section titled;
"One Moment in Time".

Here you will see various photos throughout the video, taken by many individuals during those very busy and dangerous times

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCtRC7EfaRI

That to be followed with another video as told by a FDNY member who fought the very difficult Telephone Company fire of 1975

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7g5lG-Ns0A

Of course much has changed since those very difficult FDNY War Years.
But could they return ?

That's for YOU to decide.
Many firefighters and buffs who were a part of it, might feel, "we are a long way from the way it was".
Let's all hope they DON'T Return.

 

[grumpy grizzly]

There are cameras and cell phones everywhere. Chances are you would be notified of something while it is still rather small in nature and able to be contained. Every time some athlete or a politician does something stupid there are a million posts and videos of it.

 

[grumpy grizzly]

FDNY's "War Years" ran from the late 1960s through the 1970s (and maybe 1980s) depending upon how you define the period of tremendous fire activity in many parts of NYC (S Bronx, Harlem, Brownsville, ENY, LES, Williamsburg, Bed-Sty, etc). It was experienced in many, or even most, parts of the city. Companies had 4000 runs a year in many parts of the city and did not make lists acknowledging the busiest units. 20 runs, 4 or 5 fires, no time for meals, back-to-back-to-back runs - all were common experiences.

As Johnny Gage noted, there were many causes but it seemed to be triggered in NYC, and many other cities, by a period of civil unrest characterized by large scale riots, lawlessness, violence and arson. The era saw not only countless fires but also endless false alarms and emergency responses. Note the R&Ws for War Years periods below which were primarily company responses for fires - not EMS runs (although there were many shootings, fights and muggings that FDNY responded to). This was a firefighting era that most likely will never be repeated - a period of low budgets, layoffs, company interchanges, 2nd sections, Adaptive Response, Discretionary Response Boxes, Red Caps, Tin House firehouses, extra divisions and battalions, frequent attacks on FFs, Dispatcher 3rd and 4th Alarms, etc - which impacted most neighborhoods. Interesting enough, it was not even labeled "The War Years" until years of relentless fires left neighborhoods empty and lots filled with rubble, like bombed out World War II cities in Europe. As said before, it was the best of times and the worst of time.



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Thank you for posting the runs and workers through that turbulent period. It makes it very easy to see what was going on in the city from a numbers point of view. After all numbers don't lie.

 

[raybrag]

Your comment made me think of an old quote, Grump. I believe it was Harry Truman who said, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics." Don't mean to insinuate anything by that.

 

[10-75K]

When I lived in the bronx just off Auther Ave I was just kid but old enough to remember on any given day friends and I would have a game who could guess how many plumes of smoke there would be we would go hang out on the roof of the tenement we lived in and just waited which never took long at all to see plumes of smoke rising but as time passed it was not game any more those plumes got closer and closer until we got it my parents had enough and we moved to jersey but still visited family that stayed and I was shocked what just one year did to the neighborhood by then the family that stayed moved to the other side of the Bronx zoo engine 90 ladder 41 first due area but that neighborhood is going thru some drastic changes lately.

 

[mack]

Your comment made me think of an old quote, Grump. I believe it was Harry Truman who said, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics." Don't mean to insinuate anything by that.

Ray - I don't believe the R&W lists from the War Years are lies and fire activity statistics untrue. Although the system for tallying responses in the hectic 1960s and 1970s was done without computer tickets, companies and battalions logged their 20, 30 or 40 daily runs methodically with stubby pencils, clipboards and log books when they finally got back to the firehouse. If anything, companies understated runs and workers by ignoring garbage fires, muggings, and incidents where help was rendered but the unit did not want to go OOS and miss a fire.

There were run accountability changes related to relocations and interchanges, Adaptive Response, Discretionary Response Boxes, 2 section companies, etc - but with so many firehouses empty so often, the statistics which represent War Years fire activity are unbelievable, if any word describes it.

EMS activity, as well as fires, gas leaks, car accidents and emergencies today keep fire companies very active, but are very different than the fire activity and MFA workloads of the 1960s, 70s and into the 80s.

 

[3511]

Your comment made me think of an old quote, Grump. I believe it was Harry Truman who said, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics." Don't mean to insinuate anything by that.

Mark Twain, as quoted from Disraeli.

 

[68jk09]

^^^^^Very true mack.....definitely under represented numbers....one example was during a night tour if the number of Runs exceeded 20 before midnight you had to interchange for the rest of the tour so after 18 or 19 Runs nothing was logged in.........also if you accumulated six hours of work during the night tour you interchanged the entire next night tour so many hours were not counted..... aside from this we were mandated to interchange every third night tour automatically....funny thing about the interchange in almost ten years of it we interchanged with four different slow LADs & after experiencing each others Response areas no one from any of these Units ever said "hey I want to transfer to 108" & conversely no one in 108 ever said " hey I want to go to one of these slower Units".

 

[Bulldog]

.....no one from any of these Units ever said "hey I want to transfer to 108" & conversely no one in 108 ever said " hey I want to go to one of these slower Units".

That's true everywhere, members either love or hate being in a busy company and the likes and dislikes are not always younger members versus older members. Many of us who participate here are of the variety loved it being busy and hated just sitting around in the house no matter how big or small the department was!

 

[raybrag]

Ray - I don't believe the R&W lists from the War Years are lies and fire activity statistics untrue.

I didn't suggest that they are/were, Joe. But I believe It's a mistake to look at just one set of raw numbers and draw conclusions from them. That doesn't mean that I think the war years didn't happen, nor that I minimize their effects. I don't see how anyone can read the war stories on this site and draw a conclusion like that. But it is a different world today, and the present conditions don't seem to indicate (at least to me) that we're in for a repeat.

 

[mack]

I didn't suggest that they are/were, Joe. But I believe It's a mistake to look at just one set of raw numbers and draw conclusions from them. That doesn't mean that I think the war years didn't happen, nor that I minimize their effects. I don't see how anyone can read the war stories on this site and draw a conclusion like that. But it is a different world today, and the present conditions don't seem to indicate (at least to me) that we're in for a repeat.

I agree, Ray. Good points.

You made me remember when I looked at the battalion run book in the BC's office - early 1970s. Chief's aide logged runs by hand - date, box, details. A call to the dispatcher usually filled in info like time out, when the battalion returned to quarters after a few runs, or after many runs. All-hands and multiples were in red ink. You could see a busy night by the red incidents (more than one). If there was no red ink, you had to ask what was going on. You would notice a box repeated as an all hands a few times - then a multiple. Same building which finally burned out. Many, many many vacants. You could see good blocks - OMDs. Then a good fire. Then another. Buildings became partially empty then vacant. Unfortunately, the vacant buildings were often used by kids, gangs, drug users, homeless, and had to be searched with frequent reports that someone was seen inside. The block became a bad box block, burned itself out, then became quiet. Nothing left to burn except garbage and ADVs. And there was always garbage.

Kids liked to set fires and pull boxes for false alarms. The same boxes would come in like clockwork, almost on schedule. 10-20 and then a 10-92, over and over. But there were good working fires, too. Sights you could never imagine possible. People you could never forget.

As said by many - the best of times and the worst of times.