Why were Engine's 264 and 328 combined?

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My first post in quite some time.

What was the reason why E264 and 328 (and L134) were combined to one firehouse?

Chicago has followed suit in the last couple of years with E59, E70 and T47 (and Amb. 13, Batt. 9)

And Chicago is set to open a new firehouse very soon. It's being called "the mega house," as it is rumored to house Eng. 75 and 115, the newly formed Tower Ladder 24 (was a straight stick up until less than 2 weeks ago), ALS Amb.'s 5 (currently with Engine 75), 29 (currently with TL24...the only current station in the city that is without an engine company), 76 (currently with E115), and Deputy District Chief 2-2-5 (currently with E81).

I don't really understand combining two engine companies like that, as it now means one of them was taken out of its response area (called a "still district" in Chicago) and has to travel farther and take longer to respond on a run. I think it's even more stupid to do it with 3 ambulance's that are currently housed with an engine company

Can anyone give me some insight as to why this was done with 264 and 328? I don't have any reason(s) why it's happening in Chicago. Thanks.
 
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ChiTown, many years ago E275, 298 and 299 were housed together with Ladder 127 and the 50th Battalion Chief on 162 street in Jamaica, Queens.
My guess is that it was cheaper to build one house and each engine company had it's own first due boxes and administrative districts. I'm sure Mack or FD Historian will provide more insight if it is to be had.
 
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My first post in quite some time.

What was the reason why E264 and 328 (and L134) were combined to one firehouse?

Chicago has followed suit in the last couple of years with E59, E70 and T47 (and Amb. 13, Batt. 9)

And Chicago is set to open a new firehouse very soon. It's being called "the mega house," as it is rumored to house Eng. 75 and 115, the newly formed Tower Ladder 24 (was a straight stick up until less than 2 weeks ago), ALS Amb.'s 5 (currently with Engine 75), 29 (currently with TL24...the only current station in the city that is without an engine company), 76 (currently with E115), and Deputy District Chief 2-2-5 (currently with E81).

I don't really understand combining two engine companies like that, as it now means one of them was taken out of its response area (called a "still district" in Chicago) and has to travel farther and take longer to respond on a run. I think it's even more stupid to do it with 3 ambulance's that are currently housed with an engine company

Can anyone give me some insight as to why this was done with 264 and 328? I don't have any reason(s) why it's happening in Chicago. Thanks.

Chicago is replacing three single bay firehouses, two being over 100 years old, one over 90 years old, each one with fire and ems apparatus parked in tandem in the single bay. The new combined station will bring Truck 24 south to improve ladder coverage, while retaining Engine 75 which is presently only 4,000 feet south of Engine 62.

FDNY E264 and E328 were not combined - they have always been together. Engine 264 was organized as a combination company in a formerly volunteer firehouse in 1905 and moved into their present station in 1913 with newly organized Ladder 134 which was formed by separately staffing the ladder portion of Combination 264.

In the early days of apparatus motorization, more remotely located engine companies had second sections organized. Engine 264-2 was organized in 1923, as their station was in the distant eastern end of the Rockaway peninsula. As the original build-out of companies was reaching its conclusion around 1939, the second section engines were made into independent companies. Thus Engine 264-2 became Engine 328.
 
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There was a thread on BIG FHs on this site which included info / facts & pictures of the former Jamaica Big House on 162 St off Jamaica Ave as well as some others....i am not sure where it is.
 
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There was a thread on BIG FHs on this site which included info / facts & pictures of the former Jamaica Big House on 162 St off Jamaica Ave as well as some others....i am not sure where it is.
Photos and stories about The Jamaica Big House appeared on these pages of Mack's threads.


https://nycfire.net/forums/threads/fdny-and-nyc-firehouses-and-fire-companies.14180/page-73

https://nycfire.net/forums/threads/fdny-and-nyc-firehouses-and-fire-companies.14180/page-89


https://nycfire.net/forums/threads/...-and-fire-companies-2nd-section.50639/page-40


 
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Chicago is replacing three single bay firehouses, two being over 100 years old, one over 90 years old, each one with fire and ems apparatus parked in tandem in the single bay. The new combined station will bring Truck 24 south to improve ladder coverage, while retaining Engine 75 which is presently only 4,000 feet south of Engine 62.

FDNY E264 and E328 were not combined - they have always been together. Engine 264 was organized as a combination company in a formerly volunteer firehouse in 1905 and moved into their present station in 1913 with newly organized Ladder 134 which was formed by separately staffing the ladder portion of Combination 264.

In the early days of apparatus motorization, more remotely located engine companies had second sections organized. Engine 264-2 was organized in 1923, as their station was in the distant eastern end of the Rockaway peninsula. As the original build-out of companies was reaching its conclusion around 1939, the second section engines were made into independent companies. Thus Engine 264-2 became Engine 328.


I get replacing the older firehouses. That's fine. And I understand improving truck coverage. I just think that they could move either Engine 115 or E75 to another location, farther apart, instead of combining them, which would improve engine coverage. My opinion, but that is bad planning on the part of the city.

And I'm sure that some residents of Queens would like to see either 264 or 328 in another location, improving coverage to their neighborhood.
 
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Chicago is replacing three single bay firehouses, two being over 100 years old, one over 90 years old, each one with fire and ems apparatus parked in tandem in the single bay. The new combined station will bring Truck 24 south to improve ladder coverage, while retaining Engine 75 which is presently only 4,000 feet south of Engine 62.

FDNY E264 and E328 were not combined - they have always been together. Engine 264 was organized as a combination company in a formerly volunteer firehouse in 1905 and moved into their present station in 1913 with newly organized Ladder 134 which was formed by separately staffing the ladder portion of Combination 264.

In the early days of apparatus motorization, more remotely located engine companies had second sections organized. Engine 264-2 was organized in 1923, as their station was in the distant eastern end of the Rockaway peninsula. As the original build-out of companies was reaching its conclusion around 1939, the second section engines were made into independent companies. Thus Engine 264-2 became Engine 328.
Very cool info/history as always brother.
 

mack

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Check out the history of "The Big House" in Far Rockaway - (11) FDNY and NYC Firehouses and Fire Companies - 2nd Section | Page 49 | Nycfire.net

The question - "Why were there 2 engines in the same firehouse?" is best understood by the geography (most distant part of Rockaway), the rapid and dense build-up of the neighborhood in the early 1900s, Rockaway's summer tourist attractions and the history of serious fires in Rockaway.


1922

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New York, June 15.--Fire swept through the seashore bungalow colony at Arverne, between Rockaway and Far Rockaway tonight and destroyed between 600 and 700 buildings. More than as core of colonists, overcome by smoke while fighting to save their effects, were rescued by firemen and policemen.

Fire Boats from New York. Fire boats, sent from New York, fought the fire from the bay.

Every structure in a five block area was destroyed. Eighty residences valued from $15,000 to $25,000 each, seventy-five bungalows valued at $5,000 each and fifteen hotels and boarding houses, valued at $40,000 to $50,000 each, were destroyed.

Seven engine companies, sent from New York, aided the volunteer fire fighting companies from Beach resorts. After three hours the blaze was reported under control.

An entire section of small bungalows was dynamited in attempt to arrest the flames and several firemen were hurt in this operation.

Many women and men overcome by smoke, were rescued by firemen and police and taken to the hospitals. Thirty firemen suffered burns and slight injuries.

The Bridgeport Telegram, Bridgeport, CT, 16 Jun 1922

Arverne, NY Fire, Jun 1922 | GenDisasters ... Genealogy in Tragedy, Disasters, Fires, Floods



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Arverne Conflagration

June 15, 1922, marked a busy and tragic day in the New York Fire Department. The action centered in the Rockaways, popular summering place of New Yorkers. It began with a fire that practically destroyed the home of Lillian Russell of stage fame, taking the lives of two firemen—one, Emmet F. Donnelly, Ladder 134, instantly killed by a falling chimney, and Adrien B. Curnan of Engine 26 who had volunteered his services while off duty, died later in a hospital. Several others were injured.

Later that afternoon, while operating at this fire in Far Rockaway, Battalion Chief William E. Lawrence was notified of a fire in the Arverne section which had gone out of control and for which three alarms already had been requested by Captain Harrigan of Eng. 266, which company had come from the next town of Holland to fill in for Eng. 265, out at the time of the blaze.

This fire had originated in the Hotel Nautilus, 100 Beach 60th Street, from a carelessly discarded cigarette. The culprit, a painter, delayed sending the alarm while he futilely tried to stop the blaze. The first box alarm was received at 5:15 P.M. from “signal station” 4962.

On his arrival, Captain Harrigan saw large 20-room houses on both sides of Beach 59th and 60th Streets burst into flames as flying embers from the Hotel Nautilus ignited cedar-shingled roofs dried from the sun’s rays. Without delay he ordered second, third and fourth alarm assignments.. Soon afterwards, Chief Lawrence tapped out a fifth and requested maximum pressure on the 16-in., 12-in. and 8-in. mains carrying the water supply of the Queens County Water Supply Company for the area.

At this point, although a fifth alarm had been transmitted a battalion chief still was in charge. Higher ranking chief officers, as well as the major alarm companies, all had to travel front the mainland to Rockaway, an isolated peninsula, a slow haul over the old Rockaway Boulevard and long and tortuous path through Far Rockaway and down to Arverne.

Engine Companies 267 and 266, with Ladder 121, first to arrive, were unable to reach the flaming hotel, in fact, were driven from their advanced positions under cover of a water curtain of Engine 265, which had just arrived. Men and apparatus of these units escaped safely but lost hose and hydrant connections to the onrushing lire. When Engine 265 attempted to follow, chased by the tornado of flame, their Christie Tractor failed and the engine was lost to the flames.

Twenty to thirty wooden buildings were being ignited as the air temperature rose to kindling point, and as the breeze carried heat horizontally over a wide area. Companies in its searing path were forced to retreat, in some cases leaving host to burn. Boats out in Jamaica Bay had to slip anchor to escape the heat.

Deputy Chief John O’Hara, in charge of Brooklyn and Queens, upon arrival immediately called for gasoline pumping engines from Brooklyn as it was obvious at this stage that the department was faced by a conflagration of major proportions. Motorization of the fire department at that time was not complete. Further, the pumpers of that era had not been designed for such long runs. Many broke down en route to the fire.

As the fire raged through hotels, boarding houses, bungalows and spacious homes, all efforts of the firefighters appeared futile to stop the spread. The situation was desperate as Assistant Chief of Department Joseph B. Martin and Deputy Chief John Davin arrived. The former, assuming command, quickly mapped his strategy, which was to fight the fire from both sides. Chief O’Hara was ordered to take charge of the east flank and Deputy Chief Davin the west flank. But it wasn’t so easy to mobilize the fire forces. Because of geographical difficulties, companies traveling from Brooklyn had perforce to approach the fire from the east side and to get to the west flank, they had to run the gauntlet of flame and heat at great risk. Engine 290 made the run through fire, with gasoline tank covered by a tarp’, the men shielding their faces and hands as best they could as they sped over the melting asphalt of Rockaway Boulevard.

Chief Martin called four fireboats, boat tender No. 13, and asked the aid of ten boats front the auxiliary fleet. Anticipating the danger of a shift of the wind, he asked government authorities at Governor’s Island for sappers and miners. The fireboat Mitchel was dispatched to transport men and explosives to Arverne, to be used in last ditch efforts to stop the advancing flames. The Long Island Railroad was also asked by Chief Martin to be ready to transport needed pumpers on flat cars.

The fireboats, unfortunately, were of little aid to the land forces, owing to shallow water. Meanwhile relaying was resorted to, to reduce friction losses. Batteries of strong streams were brought to bear on the flanks and companies deployed to encircle the vast ring of fire and move inward on the blaze. When, about 9:00 P.M. the Boulevard became passable, additional streams were available to stop the western advance of flame.

First relieving companies were able to return to quarters after fifteen hours of intense fire duty. It was June 17, 7:00 P.M., before the men assigned to watch lines got the final order to pick up.

It was found that the area burned measured about 1500 feet long and three blocks, or about 800 feet, wide. It contained 13 1/2 acres, with a total of 141 rooming houses, hotels and other structures. The estimated loss was $2,000,000.

This fire resulted in the enactment of legislation covering fire-resistive roofs, and establishment of an additional engine company in Far Rockawav. It also had a profound effect on the motorization of the department and its selection of automotive apparatus.

Historic New York Fires Have Influenced Fire Service - Fire Engineering


A year after this conflagration, Engine 264-2 was established in the same firehouse, renamed Engine 328 in 1939.


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mack

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There is always the threat of losing the second engine in a firehouse. It seems to be much easier for mayors to eliminate an engine if there is a remaining engine company in quarters. Many NYC fire companies were disbanded in firehouses with double engines - other cities too. The Rockaway community, however, has consistently resisted elimination of their 2nd engine.


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Big House May Lose Engine 328

The Wave | on April 24, 2009

By Nicholas Briano


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After surviving a wave of service reductions late last year, FDNY’s local Engine 328 is slated to be eliminated from the three company Big House in Far Rockaway if proposed closures are approved by the FDNY, according to a department list provided to The Wave.

In December, Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta released a list of companies that would close during evening hours and Engine 328 barely made the cut. But under a new proposal expected to take effect on July 1, Engine 328 will not face cutbacks this time. It will be completely eliminated. The firehouse located at 16-19 Central Avenue also houses Engine 264 and Ladder 134.

The proposal also names 13 other units across the city that face closure under the plan. The only other Queens closure is at Engine 293 in Woodhaven.

There are also cutbacks in store for EMS units, borough commands and fire marshals. In addition, by January 2010, this proposal could call for additional cuts as necessary throughout the city.

The plans, although not confirmed or formally announced by FDNY, have caused concern among community leaders and came as a shock.
“We thought we had convinced the city, due to our unique geographic location, to not close any fire companies,” Community Board 14 District Manager Jonathan Gaska said. “We don’t have the convenience of neighboring firehouses like other communities.”

Gaska added that Community Board 14 is against the idea because it is putting too many lives at risk.

Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer was among those concerned.

“Any change or reduction in service is unacceptable due to the proximity of the next covering firehouse in the event all our engines are unavailable,” said Joann Shapiro, Pheffer’s chief of staff.

She added that the closest firehouse that could provide coverage is in Rosedale, six miles away.

Community Board 14 must be notified by May 15, 45 days before the proposed July 1 closing. So far, Gaska has not heard official news of 328’s closing.

Big House May Lose Engine 328 | The Wave (rockawave.com)
 
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"Many NYC fire companies were disbanded in firehouses with double engines - other cities too."

That's another topic to argue against having a firehouse with two engine companies.
 
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"Many NYC fire companies were disbanded in firehouses with double engines - other cities too."

That's another topic to argue against having a firehouse with two engine companies.
NYC has vast experience with double companies (second sections, TCU's, the original Squads). In many instances (post horse drawn apparatus), the closure of a double company was used to establish a new unit where demands were increasing.

Double companies are not automatically targeted for closure. They are closed or redeployed when their current location can no longer be justified. Note that E264 & E328 have been a double company for 98 years.

Since 2004, Chicago has actually added two Truck companies and numerous ems units.
 
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One of the reasons for so many double companies 100 or more years ago was the fact that a unit was out of service from the time of the alarm until they returned to quarters. There were no radios to redirect units or to direct them to another alarm so they were out of service for longer periods of time and an area would be stripped. Besides, labor was cheap in those days and a unit may have had less than 10 men on its roster.
 

mack

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One of the reasons for so many double companies 100 or more years ago was the fact that a unit was out of service from the time of the alarm until they returned to quarters. There were no radios to redirect units or to direct them to another alarm so they were out of service for longer periods of time and an area would be stripped. Besides, labor was cheap in those days and a unit may have had less than 10 men on its roster.

Good points Lucky.

Just think how difficult it was to adjust relocations during multiple alarms with limited communications - no radios. More effective to have double companies in busy houses.
 
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Chicago is replacing three single bay firehouses, two being over 100 years old, one over 90 years old, each one with fire and ems apparatus parked in tandem in the single bay. The new combined station will bring Truck 24 south to improve ladder coverage, while retaining Engine 75 which is presently only 4,000 feet south of Engine 62.

FDNY E264 and E328 were not combined - they have always been together. Engine 264 was organized as a combination company in a formerly volunteer firehouse in 1905 and moved into their present station in 1913 with newly organized Ladder 134 which was formed by separately staffing the ladder portion of Combination 264.

In the early days of apparatus motorization, more remotely located engine companies had second sections organized. Engine 264-2 was organized in 1923, as their station was in the distant eastern end of the Rockaway peninsula. As the original build-out of companies was reaching its conclusion around 1939, the second section engines were made into independent companies. Thus Engine 264-2 became Engine 328.
Gr8 info as always FDHistorian.
 
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