ABC Question

R

Ret Phila Lieut

Joined
Jun 25, 2013
Messages
174
I see when a Bn. Is an ABC people always denote it with an asterisk. My question is this,,,,,if the 1st in Bn is an ABC on a 10-75 is he still calling the shots even after the 2nd due chief arrives.
 
Ret Phila Lieut said:
I see when a Bn. Is an ABC people always denote it with an asterisk. My question is this,,,,,if the 1st in Bn is an ABC on a 10-75 is he still calling the shots even after the 2nd due chief arrives.
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From what I recall, 2nd due battalion usually takes over, probably 95% of the time, if they arnt also a ABC, and the ABC usually goes and does fire sector stuff.

Brooklyn 10-75 Box 194 had BC35 second due as the ABC, but the 45 transferred command after the under control although the 45 remains on scene with them until I think about 5 hours after the Under Control when they finally got the last couple of hot spots dealt with.
 
ABC's are first chosen from a CPT on a current BC Promo list & if none in the DV then a Senior CPT from the DV the open BN is in.

The most current policy on ABC's in the FDNY is at a Working Fire if the ABC is 1st Due BC he is the IC until the 2nd Due BC arrives who then becomes the IC.....smoke & mirrors lets save some dollars BS....the ABC can make decisions all day long on issues including running a Fire or Emergency until an actual BC arrives .....if in the eyes of The Job the ABC is only partially capable of being IC then do not have them at all ....open the purse strings & hire a regular BC for that tour.
 
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68jk09 said:
ABC's are first chosen from a CPT on a current BC Promo list & if none in the DV then a Senior CPT from the DV the open BN is in.

The most current policy on ABC's in the FDNY is at a Working Fire if the ABC is 1st Due BC he is the IC until the 2nd Due BC arrives who then becomes the IC.....smoke & mirrors lets save some dollars BS....the ABC can make decisions all day long on issues including running a Fire or Emergency until an actual BC arrives .....if in the eyes of The Job the ABC is only partially capable of being IC then do not have them at all ....open the purse strings & hire a regular BC for that tour.
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I totally agree,,,if your in the car then you should know what your doing until at least a D.C. assumes command. (Just my personal opinion)
 
Seems to me that if rank by promotion means anything, Then the ABC needs to grab his mask and get up to the point of attack where he works every day.

Would Battalion Chief George Patton let Acting Battalion Chief Beetle Bailey run the show?
 
I would take a senior Captain who has the fire experience than some of the new BC’s who have flown up the ranks with little experience in each rank. Remember Captains recently couldn’t take promotion to Chief because they had less than 2 years in Captains rank.
 
mac8146 said:
I would take a senior Captain who has the fire experience than some of the new BC’s who have flown up the ranks with little experience in each rank. Remember Captains recently couldn’t take promotion to Chief because they had less than 2 years in Captains rank.
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I remember being ABC within the first year of being promoted to Captain. It is a completely different feeling being outside the building or incident than leading your company. It’s like watching a game from the stands rather than being in the game.
 
The latest policy, as of this past October-

1st to arrive ABC is the IC until an actual BC shows up. Then the ABC becomes the Fire Sector, the BC becomes the IC.

However,

"Deviation from this policy is permissible at the discretion of the BC after an evaluation of the present conditions."
 
JohnnyGage said:
If the act BC is a Captain, he has little experience in the role of a BC, two completely different functions.
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I have to disagree,,lets say your the ABC on Monday and you happen to get promoted to B.C. Tuesday,,,does that all of a sudden make you more capable to perform your duty. You shouldn't be an ABC unless you know what the role entails.
 
Well that wouldn't happen because when you get promoted, you go complete BC training for a few weeks. And yes, as people have already mentioned above, that is why an ABC is usually one of the senior captains in the division or someone on the BC list.
 
Ret Phila Lieut said:
I have to disagree,,lets say your the ABC on Monday and you happen to get promoted to B.C. Tuesday,,,does that all of a sudden make you more capable to perform your duty. You shouldn't be an ABC unless you know what the role entails.
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Welcome to the FDNY; you're comparing apples to oranges, a Captain is company level experience whereas BC is middle management very different perspectives. You don't just get thrown into the next rank without some sort of orientation, newly promoted FDNY Battalion Chiefs undergo an extensive, mandatory orientation and training program before being assigned to the field.
 
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I was often Acting Battalion Chief in both in Manhattans 3rd and later 1 St. Divisions. While it think the change to replace the I.C, with a Regular Post Promoted Batt. Chief is a good idea; but the Deputy Chief often made the decision as to who was in charge of what a fire where an A.B.C. was operating. If things were going well and progress was being made and the control of the fire or situation was good the Deputy often left A.B.C.s in place. The Deputy also often knew the experience level of the A.B.C. were he or she worked with before and what training and education the A.B.C. had. "If it isn't broke don't fix it" I had the honor of driving one the great battalion Chief's in the FDNY, B.C. Artie Meadows Battalion 4, who taught me what do to operate effectively at a fire. I drove Chief Meadows as a firefighter in TL- 18 but detailed up to the 4th Batt. just prior to my promotion to Lieutenant. Years later as a senior Captain and on the Battalion Chief promotion list when I was myself and A.B.C. what the great Artie Meadows taught me, was my guide. I remember thinking "what would Artie Meadows have done in this situation."
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
 
Do A.B.C.'s occur because the city won't pay BC's overtime to cover the spot or because no BC's took the overtime?
 
GFD70 said:
Do A.B.C.'s occur because the city won't pay BC's overtime to cover the spot or because no BC's took the overtime?
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B Cs do not get OT ....if they work over the regular amount of hrs they get comp time "monopoly money" which is given back in time off provided the Dept wants to approve it for the particular tour the BC might want & there are restrictions on how many can be off at one time & what days etc....certainly not like OT that is automatically paid shortly after an OT tour is worked.....i believe currently there is some negotiations regarding cash OT for Chiefs .....i guess we will see,.... either way the City should open the purse strings.
 
captaindewey50267021@gm said:
I was often Acting Battalion Chief in both in Manhattans 3rd and later 1 St. Divisions. While it think the change to replace the I.C, with a Regular Post Promoted Batt. Chief is a good idea; but the Deputy Chief often made the decision as to who was in charge of what a fire where an A.B.C. was operating. If things were going well and progress was being made and the control of the fire or situation was good the Deputy often left A.B.C.s in place. The Deputy also often knew the experience level of the A.B.C. were he or she worked with before and what training and education the A.B.C. had. "If it isn't broke don't fix it" I had the honor of driving one the great battalion Chief's in the FDNY, B.C. Artie Meadows Battalion 4, who taught me what do to operate effectively at a fire. I drove Chief Meadows as a firefighter in TL- 18 but detailed up to the 4th Batt. just prior to my promotion to Lieutenant. Years later as a senior Captain and on the Battalion Chief promotion list when I was myself and A.B.C. what the great Artie Meadows taught me, was my guide. I remember thinking "what would Artie Meadows have done in this situation."
Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
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Got any good Artie tid-bits to share Cap?...
 
For clarity-

- if there is a vacancy in one of the line unit battalions, it is filled with a "surplus assignment" or "SA" BC who is not assigned to a particular unit. If an SA BC is not available, then they use an ABC.

- the Dept. arranges tour assignments so that two ABCs do not "touch", meaning the 1st and 2nd chiefs in a geographical response area are not both ABCs. If needed, the boro dispatch can alter a response assignment to effect the policy when there is fire activity resulting in non typical alarm assignment.

- there is pending litigation regarding BC overtime. It concerns the federal Fair Labor Standards Act "FLSA", to be brief.
 
A further question on this: aside from the fact an ABC gets relieved by a BC as incident commander, what other positions is the ABC restricted from? On a second alarm, I believe ABCs are not allowed to be assigned safety, correct? Am I also correct to say they don't use ABCs in the SOC battalions (RB, HB, MB), nor in Safety?
 
Batt. Chief Artie Meadows Battalion 4 was the Captain of Ladder 56 in the Bronx when the company was formed, I think, in the mid 1960's. as the South and Mid Bronx , Brooklyn and Manhattans Harlem became more and more fire active in the mid 1960s more, and more units were opened up to deal with the huge increase in fire duty. Some units both Engines and ladder companies received 2nd sections. Example Ladder 17 in the South Bronx had L-17-1 and Ladder 17-2. the 1st section 17-1 responded 1st than if an alarm came in for another box L-17-2 responded. Both units responded fully manned and rarely responded to the same box. Generally, The 2nd day L-17-2 was 1st to respond and L-17-1 responded to any other box L-17 was assigned. Even with both sections available, fully manned Tactical Control Units were added during high fire activity hours to add additional Engine & Truck companies to the available fire units. You can see why great fire officers such as Artie Meadows were developed with all this firefighting exuberance. When these experienced officers and firefighters, were Promoted to Battalion and Latter higher-ranking Chief's they were truly the "Greatest Generation in the FDNY" I was once told that Artie Meadows was a "Tuskegee Airman" in the U.S Army Air Corps, in WW II, but I do not know for sure if this a fact. He truly had all the right stuff. Captain Bob Rainey FDNY Engine 26 retired
 
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