FDNY Pumpers awarded to KME

FDNY150.......  Not to get off the subject but that is the same thing I said when it came to the new Ferrara rearmounts that are in service now.............After noting numerous problems stop production correct the problems and go back into production..............But no this is the FDNY

I also questioned if KME was going to make a demo model and issue it to the companys that the E 1's went to.........I was told once the rig is finally approved by the FDNY committee it will go to mass production........Here we go again
 
If only MACK was still "Really" around. If I get the time i'll try and whip up a sketch in MS Paint to get a visual on how this may look.
 
NYBravest82 said:
If only MACK was still "Really" around. If I get the time i'll try and whip up a sketch in MS Paint to get a visual on how this may look.
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  Those Heavy Duty Mack Pumpers and Tower Ladders will NEVER-EVER be beat. No fire trucks fought the number of fires they did, then after several years of that, many served other busy cities for years on. Providence Tower Ladders 1 and 2, their busiest ladder companies, were former FDNY rigs. Those rigs probadly spent another 10 years in service there as frontline pieces after being rebuilt by their shops.

  And those Seagrave rearmount ladders. Another group of tough rigs. Same story, fought fires during the busiest time in history for ANY fire dept. Then went on to serve in several others. In the small city dept I worked in, we had gotten a 1970 Seagrave from a local volunteer outfit that had bought it used, or should I say "pre owned". That rig served us as a reserve ladder for several years, and was finally put to rest about 4-5 years ago. A 1970 Seagrave Rearmount, served as Ladder 113 (?) during their busiest years, then served a volly dept, then became a reserve for a small city dept. Was in service for almost FORTY YEARS.

  HMEs, KMEs, ALFs, E-Ones, or any others, with all the bells and whistles, have a tough time trying to beat that.
 
No one can beat the older units because of EPA and other Gov't requirements.  If Mack were here today, they'd have the same issues.  If Mack were a better company, they'd have stayed in business.  I'm aware of units from the 1980's that have been refurb end multiple times and are still in service today with various departments.  These units are from Pierce, E-One, ect.....

...it's all about the demands placed on the builders today, not the builders themselves, with some exception.
 
The EPA/Gov't requirements are for the engine/exhaust mandates. The EPA doesn't dictate the other 75% of the rig....the Not For Practical Application (NFPA)  tries to dictate the rest, and don't think for a minute the apparatus manufacturers are boo hooing about all this, especially when they're given the check for all the goodies that are built into a fire truck.
 
vbcapt said:
The EPA/Gov't requirements are for the engine/exhaust mandates. The EPA doesn't dictate the other 75% of the rig....the Not For Practical Application (NFPA)  tries to dictate the rest, and don't think for a minute the apparatus manufacturers are boo hooing about all this, especially when they're given the check for all the goodies that are built into a fire truck.
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Dead on Capt., I agree.
 
nfd2004 said:
NYBravest82 said:
If only MACK was still "Really" around. If I get the time i'll try and whip up a sketch in MS Paint to get a visual on how this may look.
Click to expand...

  Those Heavy Duty Mack Pumpers and Tower Ladders will NEVER-EVER be beat. No fire trucks fought the number of fires they did, then after several years of that, many served other busy cities for years on. Providence Tower Ladders 1 and 2, their busiest ladder companies, were former FDNY rigs. Those rigs probadly spent another 10 years in service there as frontline pieces after being rebuilt by their shops.

    HMEs, KMEs, ALFs, E-Ones, or any others, with all the bells and whistles, have a tough time trying to beat that.
Click to expand...
So true Bill. The Mack CF Pumpers and Tower Ladders did more running and actual fire duty in NYC than any other manufacturers apparatus ever saw anywhere. Those rigs were built to respond to and operate at fires. No fancy parade stuff was included or needed. As for today's apparatus, it's all built to meet the same NFPA spec's (more than a little of which are pure nonsense that just add to the cost of the rig). I worked for a Pierce dealer after retirement and although many apparatus buffs genuflect everytime the 'Pierce name' is mentioned, they truly are nothing special. I saw lot's of problems with new Pierce rigs that repeatedly came back to the dealership for repair only to show up again with the same issue.
 
Grumpy appreciates the apparatus of FDNY, Mack's E @ TL were run to death. Boston made a large purchase: E-3,7,10,12,14,17,18,21,22,24,26,28,33,37,39,42,43,52. These were all 70-72 1250 GPM pumpers, they served with busy companies. Sorry for my stupidity, these were all Hanh's.
 
We just need plain Jane rigs that get the job done. A no frills rig that's built to last and perform one that doesn't need to be put out oos all the time because of electrical problems and all the other garbage our rig goes oos for.  Wasn't on the job when we had the Mack's but heard  they were true work horses that were always able to do the job and didn't have all the bull shit probs the rigs have now
 
Gotta agree with 69 Mets, the war years Mack CF engines & towers were workhorses and I would add the early 70's Seagrave rearmounts to that group.
I'm thinking the city will eventually be sorry about the Ferrara's and KME's
I also agree with 69 Mets about the Pierce's. A lot of apparatus people think they're great, but my last department in Texas had one and it was truly nothing special.
 
The city is already sorry about the Ferrara's.  The kme's, my personal opinion is that they wont even fill that order.  This will be the death of Kme.  And from what i hear the city is killing Ferrara with warranty and ferrara is in bad shape.
 
Rich@36 said:
The city is already sorry about the Ferrara's.  The kme's, my personal opinion is that they wont even fill that order.  This will be the death of Kme.  And from what i hear the city is killing Ferrara with warranty and ferrara is in bad shape.
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I hate to do it......but I'm going to say a thing or two in defense of the Ferrara.  Some of the initial issues are shaking out.  They aren't perfect, but I know a couple of neighboring companies got them and they've been problem free for a while now.  Both spent a lot of time out of service in the first 6 months, but since then, they've been problem free.  Hopefully this is a sign of how they'll hold up over time.  Some aspects of the design are pretty popular with the guys, like the back-step.  It's pretty damn nice......
 
The design of the rig- compartments, cab, ground ladders,etc. is built into the specs that the city writes.  So any company can build a cab with space basically.  It's the electrical components, the build of the ladder that is different with the manufacturers.  I think the real test of the Ferraras will be when the little kinks are worked out, if they are.  I was in a company that got one of the first ones and we only had minor problems with it.  We were out of service a lot so the mechanics could replace parts that were failing in some of the other rigs, as a preventitive maintenance.  But I guess we will see in the next contract how things are going.
 
I can't comment on any FDNY rigs as I was not a member of the FDNY. But I do remember when living on University Ave in the 70's E75/L33 both had Mack rigs of the 70's assigned to them and were constantly using spares. As a matter of fact in the video The Fire Next Door, L33 was using a Mack C tower ladder as a spare. Yes they took a lot of abuse but they were constantly OOS also. I remember an FDNY member I knew referring to his company's Seagrave rearmount as a Seapig. The dept I belonged to had ALF rigs of the 60's and 70's variety. I hated them. They were meant to be driven by midgets, had no power steering or air brakes and manual transmissions that had to be double clutched. I would not take any of these rigs over a modern day rig. From what I hear, these newer Seagrave pumpers and tower ladders are out of service just as often as any other rig and I think TL51 has spent more time in spares than in their 2002 Seagrave. Same goes for any vehicle or equipment. I would not take my 65 Chevy or 76 Olds over my 07 Camry any day. Point is the older rigs were no bargain either. Ferrara and KME have been building rigs that have been successfully used by many depts but FDNY doesn't want those rigs.
 
The FDNY as well as other major citys is the lowest bidder usually ends up with the contract.. As far as the new Ferrara Rearmounts, I think every unit that received a new one has been out of service atleast once if not twice in the short period of time they have been on this job....
As far as the KME Pumpers they now hold the contact to build 91 rigs within the 3 year contract...Once the rig is approved by the FDNY committee it will go to mass production......

Alot of major citys use KME pumpers and have no problems with them...some citys claim they do....

Hopefully the new KME s will stand up good with the FDNY usage... Its a wait and see game..
 
Once or twice oos with the ferreras would be  a dream. We were oos twice this week already one for a recall and another for a coolant leak
 
I  hope I never witness it but someday when the majority of the new ferrera rearmounts ar out of service there will be no spares left if another truck goes  OOS...I hope it never comes to this...
As far as the Seagrave pumpers  they have been on the FDNY as first line units since 1992....I think they have held up pretty well up to this point......I for one hoped seagrave would have won the bid for the new contact....Hopefully the new KMEs dont turn into a disaster like the ferreras have.......
 
After visiting a few houses 2 wks ago with a mixture of rigs the feedback i got was....

In 1 house with a New Ferrara the truck was grand only problem was the airhorn which had been damaged during Sandy and was being fixed as i was there. (they couldn't speak for others but there's was grand)

Feedback on the Seagrave's (Ladders & Engines) was too much open space in the back and there FF's were not that favourable on this layout and they preferred the old layout.

New BC GMC's everyone agreed where not good
 
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